Episode 4 

How surprising it must be to, four decades into a life and for the first time, begin a new type of relationship. One that radically changes things.

Mike Curran, the CEO of XLVets Ireland, reflects on the mentor he gained unexpectedly, how this relationship propelled him into new things and how to be, and to find, a mentor. He also reveals how he safeguards himself against the ravages of stress and high demands. Along the way, Mike makes a case for the value of doing service sector jobs, despite the associated low rates of pay, early in one’s working life.

What is a mentor, can mentoring programmes really 'force' this kind of relationship and is there such a thing as an anti-mentor?

This is a short bonus quickcast, following Mike Curran's episode titled The Accidental Mentor'. Here, Mike provides his definition of what a mentor is, cautions against the anti-mentor and expresses his doubts about formalised mentoring programmes.

The Accidental Mentor: I didn’t know I needed one with Mike Curran

INTRO

[Air traffic announcement and background airport noise]

Mike Curran (Guest): The airline industry in itself. It taught me a lot about time, if you think about it. Your flight is at 12:00. The plane to take you away at 12:00 lands at, uh, eleven, uh, 15. The time to turn that aircraft around is limited. It must go at twelve. It does not go at a minute past twelve. And within that there's pressures. So there's reports and costs for every minute over.

Belinda Brummer (host): Consider for a moment the skills, mindset and professional maturity developed in the course of running the operations of airlines. When this builds on, um, already well developed and tested life skills required to succeed in the service sector, you'd be forgiven for thinking this episode of the manager's moment is about my guest becoming a mentor. It is about that too. But in the course of this conversation, my guest shares how at, ah, almost 40, he found himself with a mentor for the first time and one he never knew he needed. This is the manager's moment and I am your host, Belinda Brummer. My guest is Mike Curran.

Mike Curran (Guest): I am the CEO of XLVets Ireland, a cooperative of independent veterinary practices. Linda. We met to, uh, intermediary. We were introduced by somebody that had worked on it projects in previous roles. We built projects and completed projects of value and in that, and uh, that person felt, you know, an introduction should be made.

Belinda Brummer (host): So we haven't actually met face to face, but we've had a conversation or two. So this is going to be really interesting because we're both getting to know each other here.

Mike Curran (Guest): There was a question that was put, you know, what do I see is management. What is management? And actually an interesting one. It depends on what point in time that you're at. If you were to ask me when I was back 12, 15,16, 18, it's about doing, it's managing. I have these jobs to do and suddenly as you move in your career, well, now I have to manage time. I have this time to do a number of jobs. So I'm going to manage this and that moves then maybe into supervisory role and that you're managing the time of others as well to do things. And then as you go up supervisory, up to more senior, you're managing that person and people and it becomes more personal, more invested and more serious, you know, for want of a better word.

Belinda Brummer (host): And why more serious?

Mike Curran (Guest): Oh, uh, serious because you're dealing with people and I think if you manage correctly, manage, uh, effectively, you really have to invest in the person. And sometimes there's really positive conversations, sometimes there's really tough conversations to be had. And that's what I mean by serious. You're dealing with people. People have lives outside of the workplace, they have families, they have commitments, financially or something else. But within your manager role, you have a duty to care to the role that you're in, the people around you, the business, your goals, your targets. So that's what I mean by serious.

Belinda Brummer (host): Your very first job was a management role in retail, I think it was in the restaurant industry. What equipped you at that point, so early in your life, in your work experience, in your career, what equipped you to have the, um, confidence to take on whatever that management role was, and what led you to even be considered for that management role? Because the question is, how do you move into management? But you started out in management.

Mike Curran (Guest): Yeah, that's an interesting one. Um, I've not thought of it like that. So I suppose I would absolutely accredit a lot of my ability in my early twenties with my earlier work roles. Okay. So I arrived home one day, my parents have got me a job after school. Didn't want it, um, but, you know, off you go. That was their way, and that's fine. Um, didn't get to do my after school sports, but I ended up working. I ended up having money in my pocket more than any of my friends. And, um, that was an interesting route. And suddenly I'm in a shop assistant role. And hotels, bars, restaurants, there is something interesting in those roles, in that you get to interact with a lot of people and a lot of situations, a lot of challenges, a lot of positive conversations. You see the light side of life and the dark side of life, because you're dealing with, especially when you're dealing with groups of people, especially if you're dealing in bars where there's alcohol or other product or other items. Um, and that can school you. I can school you incredibly quickly. And the other element, because of my airlines, um, the airline industry in itself, which I end up going back to, it taught me a lot about time. I would credit the airlines through time. If you think about it, your flight is at 12:00. The plane to take you away at 12:00 lands at, uh, eleven, uh, 15. If it's a Ryanair or easyJet, it's 1130 or 1135. So the time to turn that aircraft around is limited. Um, it must go at twelve. It does not go at a minute past twelve. And within that there's pressures, so there's reports and costs for every minute over. So you end up learning how to complete your work within time defined, and then you learn how to complete your work at a very high standard, within time defined parameters. And I suppose carrying into my first management role, um, I was doing a degree in Brighton. That was the first trigger the quality of work I was doing in this premise already working part time over the weekends. And I would say I am comfortable and I was very comfortable very young, um, in talking to people irregardless of their role within the organization. So I do see that in people, sometimes they're afraid to talk to the manager or the director of these titles because they feel they're different. And a hierarchy, actually, they're just people like you and me, Belinda.

Belinda Brummer (host): Uh, and what has you getting there so early in your life? Because that's something we, most people take a long time to learn.

Mike Curran (Guest): It is. And I see the same behavior as my own kids coming through and it's really interesting. There is some natural with that, I would say. But I would absolutely agree that having exposure, even in your mid teens or late teens, in service sector work or other work where you're involved with a lot of people and you're communicating a lot at different levels, um, that does help set you up for career. If you are an 18 year old and you're completing your final exams and you go into college and you get your degree and you go on to math onto your masters and you've done all of that in academia, but you've never worked a day in your life, and then you go out to the real world, it is a shock. And to move through ranks very quickly is very rare in that sense because you've no experience in interacting with people, having those positive challenges, having those negative challenges, but actually managing them, um, whether it's tough conversations or a tough situation where it's high pressure, low pressure, good culture, bad culture, we know in Ireland.

Belinda Brummer (host): And I think in many of the developed parts of the world where we have a generation who, their circumstances as a young person are very different than maybe when you and I were young. And that means that they don't necessarily settle for minimum wage jobs. And so the youth of today in Ireland may not be doing those jobs that really are the thing that equips you. Do you see that? Am I onto something completely irrelevant here?

Mike Curran (Guest): Oh, you're right on point. So over the last twelve months, I've traveled to the UK, Holland, Denmark, just come back from a really forward trip from New Zealand, um, and of course, my meetings throughout Ireland. And we are in a better position financially comfort than what we were in the eighties, Ireland in the eighties was a tough place. That's why my parents went out and got me a job. You know, I understand that. And I have had this conversation with so many friends, colleagues, business leaders, and it's the same everywhere. We all feel that we're over protecting our own kids at the moment. And, uh, all employers have told me the same thing. In all the countries, they're looking for people with capability, someone that's willing to graft and get into the work and do that bit extra to prove their ability. So for that promotion, so they have that discussion rather than expect the promotion, they're looking for people with what we call cop on. And we find that a lot more young people are coming into industry to work without any experience anywhere. And they're coming into industry to start their career learning a lot more from the get go than what maybe previous generations would have learned 510 years prior to that. And then in addition to that, to add another problem is the word anxiety. And every country have gone and have said the very same thing. At the level of anxiousness. Anxiety in young people today is super high, to the point where I had an interest in conversation with a dean of university outside, uh, of Ireland, and they were surprised at the sheer volume of students now taking a break between in their degree and it's increasing year on year. So they're taking a gap year after year two or year three to go away and deal with the pressures to go back again. So it's interesting to see that I take a really good interest in universities, in students and what's coming out there and how can we help them, because there certainly is a change in difference in there.

Belinda Brummer (host): And your life and where you are now is one of, um, a billion different ways to live a life. But if we take yours as an example, those skills that you learned by doing those things before you even left school, and, uh, all that communication and working with people, etcetera, 20 or 30 years on, that experience enables where you are now. And if you don't have that in 20 or 30 years time, where are those people going to be? When they don't have those skills now? They'll be in their own unique place. But from our perspective and our point where we are at this moment in the world, it does ask a very big question about the 40, 50 year olds of the future. Where are they going to be?

Mike Curran (Guest): Billy? I couldn't agree more. I think the key word there is resilience. And a couple of people have asked me in my life, including my wife and other family and friends. And they're like, this is a really important thing right now. Why aren't you stressed about it? And actually my response is, do you know what? Um. If I worry about this all day today and be stressed about it and think about it all day today, is it going to solve the problem? And the answer is like, well, no. I said, okay, then why get stressed about it? Let's just plan to do something about it. And at the moment, that problem, the nearest point I can fix it is three weeks from now. Well, then that goes into my calendar and I'll deal with it then. Uh, and I've learned that through working hard to be in stressful situations or toxic situations. Um, and I think it's built a small bit of resilience, maybe a larger bit, some people would say, but I don't allow the problems of the world or the problems of now, uh, interfere with me and move forward on it. Uh, and I do fear there's a lack of resilience out there. Where is that going to put us as a society 20, 30, 40 years from now?

Belinda Brummer (host): You've mentioned that you have children. Knowing what you know now, just on the back of this conversation alone, how are you responding to that with your own children? What are you exposing them to? To shore up that resilience to. To help them develop those skills that you learned, that maybe they're not in an environment to learn?

Mike Curran (Guest): Certainly from my point, my two kids, my my daughter's twelve, my son is 15. Both growing up far too quickly, um, in time is moving far too fast. Uh, I suppose my rule of thumb myself, my wife's is expose them to everything. If they want to do something, um, whether it's the arts or sports or activities, the answer is yes. When they're really young, they can specialize as they grow up. But they're involved in activities, involved with people and friends. Um, I coach a number of sports, Belinda. I coach rugby and soccer teams. And in that I've learned a lot through those national organizations and through business and bringing both together that, you know, the power of asking instead of telling. And I would have grown up in the generation of telling, you know, on a pitch, you were told what to do in school. You're told what to do. Now we have a shift and we see it in schools, um, and we see it in workplaces asking, you know, what do you think? And that's what I would do. My kids, we come across situation and they might ask a question, dad, what's this? Or what's that? I go, what do you think it is? Or do you think that's good? Or what's your opinion on it? And actually that exploratory questioning brings up more conversation and more understanding.

Belinda Brummer (host): And as you think back all the way from your first job, all the way through all of that experience that you've spoken about, have you noticed any things that you pay attention to or things that you see or observe or experience again and again that just seem to be a theme in your life that relate to work?

Mike Curran (Guest): There's a couple of words that I use and I wish I knew them 20 or 30 years ago. You know, one of them is perception. Perceptions. You know, we perceive somebody as better. Or, uh, when they say that thing so confidently, there's, we perceive that they're so right. And actually, as I grow further and listen to people, um, you know what, it's not quite true all the time. Um, respect is a thread. Honesty, uh, behaviours. It is a constant thread through everything. And when I meet people, I have expectations of them. They should have expectations of me. I have a mantra and I live by it. And the team I'm working out, I mention it every time and I hear them repeating and I'm so proud of it. And it's, we do the things that we say we're going to do. Small sentence, but it means a lot because, Belinda, if I was working with you and we agreed on something, it will be done from our side and it will be done to the highest standards. So it means anything that we're working together on gets completed on time, on budget, and it creates confidence in a relationship and trust, which is really important. I expect the same back from other people that I meet. I do find that more and more challenging as I go through my career to find more of those people, more of those professional people that actually do what they say they're going to do and do it consistently.

Belinda Brummer (host): Why is that?

Mike Curran (Guest): Personalities. I'd always describe to some people about blue sky thinkers and I think there is space in the world for a blue sky thinker. I think they can be fabulous to come out with a creative idea or an angle or situation or something that we hadn't seen, having that insight, foresight to actually see what we can do. But I've had experience in organizations with blue sky thinkers coming in, a couple of steps in the ladder ahead of me and they come in in a whirlwind and you see this wave of CEO's that are in roles for three years and are gone. Blue, uh, sky think are coming in we're going to double our sales in five years. Everybody get on board on this. We're going to do this and we spend money here, there and everywhere, but it doesn't come to fruition. And my challenge has always been, okay, sounds like a great idea, really on board. How are we going to do it? What are the levers, those micro steps? And that's where we get into nitty gritty. That's the space I like to be in. Yes, we get to the top of Mount Everest, but we can't get there without a very clear, detailed plan along the way and one step in front of the other. And I find that that's more and more challenging to find people that I'd like to interact with at that level. But the real key on it for me though, is doing what you say you're going to do and, uh, finding those people. I align with them. Hence why that, uh, previous company I worked with introduced me to yourself, because I worked with that company and they did what they said they were going to do. In fact, they did more. And I do have a lot of companies that I've carried over a number of industries now because that trust has been built. I know what they're going to do. I know they're going to challenge me. I know they're not going to accept, okay, Mike and the team said to do this. They're set up to challenge back and going, okay, Mike, here's a different way of looking at it. Or could we ask you this? And there's real contra value going back and forward. We're paying for service. We clearly believe we're paying fairly for it. We're getting high quality output. They're getting that value. We're getting the value of the output on the other side and those relationships continue. I wish there was much more of those relationships out there. There's not enough.

BREAK

Belinda Brummer (host): The managers moment is brought to you by Boost Learning, where management development is done differently. Our eight-week programmes are designed to fit perfectly, perfectly around your schedule, your experience, and your development needs, all delivered online and virtually. To find out more, go to www.boostlearning.online.

RETURN

Belinda Brummer (host): I'm speaking with Mike Curran, the CEO of Xlvets Ireland. Before the break, Mike reflected on the things that he finds are themes that run through his professional life and to which he has paid attention. Things like respect, trust, and doing what you say you'll do. 

Mike, in your career to date, has there been a moment or a relationship or something else that changed you or changed how you experienced the world of.

Mike Curran (Guest): Work as a manager there has Belinda. And um, what's interesting was I didn't know I was looking for it. I didn't know it was there. And I refer to it as, uh, the accidental mentor. I didn't know I needed one until I found I had one. And I didn't realize I had one until much later in the relationship. I was lucky to meet someone in retail pharmacy. And it was a large group in Ireland. And, uh, they offered me a role. The role was challenging. It was two hour commute. I ended up renting in Dublin, staying overnight during the week. And I completed that for quite a number of time. But very quickly I realized that it was challenging in also a different way. It was challenging mentally, and I was being mentally challenged by a person and him as the business principle. I would have been in my late thirties coming, uh, into 40, settled into it. But what was fascinating almost immediately was that business principle challenging and challenging mentally and questioning and guiding. And I think I quickly realized that, okay, I have a mentor here, someone that's taken an interest.

Belinda Brummer (host): Was this person your manager? Was this or your leader or person you reported to?

Mike Curran (Guest): He owned the business. And I would have, uh, answered he wasn't my direct line manager. He eventually became, I grew in the company and moved up different ranks and roles and ended up taking on, uh, a number of functions within the organization. But initially he would have been the Principal and I answered him to somebody else. But we gained a connection quite quickly because I like to challenge things. I, um, like to find the right logical reason why we do a project or not. And my approach stood out with that person. And I suppose it was a watershed moment for me. And it has changed how I manage myself and how I manage the people around me, how I recruit, how I develop businesses, how I grow them, because a person invested time and effort and gave me potential exposure much more than the role warranted. So I was able to gain tens of years of experience of somebody that I didn't have the opportunity of when I was in my twenties. And I suppose as that relationship developed and the roles developed, I began probably being exposed to many more watershed moments and what I would do with myself if I was now 20 again. And of course, I can't turn back time, but what I can do is I have my own kids and I can take them through a different journey than I had, but also I have people that I employ and I can take them through a different journey than I have had.

Belinda Brummer (host): And so what was this person doing that was different. And how were you different in that relationship?

Mike Curran (Guest): What the person was doing was it was weekly, one on ones in person, um, whether that was in an office or walking the street or going into our retail pharmacies and challenging, asking very difficult questions a lot of the time. Not all of them needed to be answered. More of them were for pot. And that's what I found interesting, and that's that relationship and that way of working. It just landed very well with me. I think that relationship then grew because it freed me up to really think and understand the organization more and business more. It wasn't, again, one on one, specifically about the functions that we're doing. These are, uh, probably more high level discussions, but in that, it was excellent to hear that person's opinion on something and their experience of a property management company, a financial transaction, a challenging staff situation, business, uh, acquisition, and so on.

Belinda Brummer (host): And m what strikes me, Mike, is, up until this point, you've a lot of experience, and we've spoken about the different people you might have come in contact with, the roles you've had. There must have been something about you or about you in that moment that allowed you to be open to that relationship, because we're not always open. Even though somebody might present themselves, we may not be, uh, in a space or in a time in our lives when we are open to that connection. Why were you open to it, do you think?

Mike Curran (Guest): I don't think it was a time that I was now open for it. I think it's just the style of person I am in, that I've always communicated with people or got on with people irregardless of their role or function. That has been a challenge in some organizations, when a line manager would see me talking to a CEO or an MD or chairman, because I found, as I've gone through life, people are people. It doesn't matter what role or function they're in. You know, you can communicate with them. I do think some people have a block because they see, well, they would talk to their peers, but not generally to their line manager or definitely not people above them, because they see it as a. A communication block through this hierarchy. I've never seen it like that. You know, people are people, and you can have conversations, and it's always worked very well for me. So I don't think it was any moment if just my style and that person's style met coincidentally. That's why I call it the accidental mentor. M worked, and I've told about that relationship and how it started, and so if I develop my career going, you know what, I'm going to mentor some people or should I have found a mentor when I was younger? But then you're thinking about that going, well that's a bit of an awkward question that I go out and hunt and find try to search for a mentor. I think it's really two people that just, they have to connect in some way. You know, they have to be able to be comfortable talking, being completely open, taking criticism, taking positivity, thinking about it, developing. Um. And um, I don't know if it's something that you can go and find too easily. I think its more initially thinking is it accidental? And then I thought about it more going, no, I'm now in a senior role. Actually the onus is on me to be the mentor to people that I recruit in. Can I help them in their career identify those rough diamonds that maybe potentially didn't go to second or third level education and we can help them and drive their career on or somebody that has come in who's really good in certain areas but finds other parts challenging that I could help them on that. So I see it now as the onus is on the manager, the person, the senior people in there that they should do is invest in their staff, invest in their people and help get the most out of them.

Belinda Brummer (host): And it sounds less invest in the staff. In this instance it was this person was investing in you. They were giving you the time because they were not your direction line manager at some, you know, in the beginning, certainly great.

Mike Curran (Guest): Correct. And that's probably what I found more interesting was that time given over and in that journey, uh uh. I've talked to a person, I suppose it landed really well that I would have assumed I wasn't so good at certain areas, but actually the feedback had got going, no, absolutely. You do not need finance training or this training. You're right up there already. And maybe it clicked to me then going, okay, why do I have a lack of confidence? I feel that I'm under educated in certain areas. You know what, I went to college but I didn't go on and do a master's. I didn't go on and do anything in my early twenties and that had stuck with me and it suck me more that I felt I'd always wanted to go back to college. I had ideas but I didn't have that academic background or logical academic thinking to qualify, verify those ideas and actually be confident in presenting them going, I know these are for discussion, but actually these are fact, these are proven models and we're going to implement these models. And I felt there was a challenge there for me that I could start to now think about and how was I going to address that? And I did that by coming back madly and going back and do my masters.

Belinda Brummer (host): So, like me, you were a mature student surrounded by other people motoring through their masters in one year with no work experience. So what was your experience of doing a masters?

Mike Curran (Guest): The journey up to it was interesting because I spent time researching. I knew I wanted something. I just didn't know fully what I wanted and I didn't want an MBA. I felt at that point in my career, I knew who I was, I knew my strengths. I'm very good at self analysing, being critical, and understanding what I need to do to correct or improve on. And I felt an MBA, you know, what wouldn't, wouldn't fully add enough value. So I went and completed, uh, a master of business studies and I wanted a bit more science. So I researched, uh, found the masters. My company and now called my mentor kindly sponsored me through it. And I remember sitting down on my first day in the class and getting that awful aha ah, uncomfortable moment where you go, what have I done? Why am I here? I'm sitting back in a classroom and I'm looking to my right and the left. And to your point, mostly, um, people that have never been in the workplace and have been slightly out of my comfort zone, and then hearing that this is a two year master's, it's going to be twelve three hour exams, 25 projects, and you're expected to do a dissertation and prove a model at the end of it.

Belinda Brummer (host): And you're working full time through this, are you?

Mike Curran (Guest): Yeah, even more to that. So, working full time, uh, in a job which is 200 km from home, so renting and traveling, commuting up and down during the week. So I'd stay over two nights and I was coaching sports and with two small kids, it was pretty hectic life, but I dived into it and I began to love it and then I relished it and it just kick-started the fire. My brain on reading, academically reading and understanding and I think a really interesting consumption. Um, why people consume certain things, information, products, services, use software, and likewise, from a business point of view, well, how do we deliver things? And from my own experiences in that has been the delivery of projects, program software being generated from the business, and you push out to the client, actually without the understanding of what the client actually wants fully and how they consume it. So I got wrapped into this and the masters absolutely loved it. Dived into my dissertation too much, I would say. But again, it was that discipline and disciplined approach, actually, I ended up with a 45,000 word dissertation that was a proven model. I got a first and a gold medal for best result that year and the option to publish it because the quality was there and it was a defend-able model. It's a proud moment to have finished that. It actually verified a lot of my ideas that I would have thought through instinct or logic. And actually it's verified going, no, no, you're right. You're more right than wrong. Much more. And it actually kind of affirmed a ground that pushed me forward into other education. Straight afterwards, I had the option of gone on to a PhD and, um, luckily I said no. I wish I did in one way. Nice to have, but I didn’t need to have it. What I did do was go on and pick nuggets, of course, as a negotiate for value up in Trinity, project management down in UL, Lean Six Sigma and some leadership courses, and just add to that suite. And they all pushed and drove my career quite rapidly after that with that mentor in that business, to the point that actually I had taken over multiple, uh, departments and functions prior to my departure.

Belinda Brummer (host): Gosh, the education bug really did bite you then. And what it must have taken of you from you to go through those two years, and then obviously the time after that, as you continued your education journey, to be able to kind of do all of that, you know, manage a home life, work life, uh, commuting, um, 200 km across the country, studies what set you up or what skill set or attitude do you think that you have that enabled that? You mentioned discipline, but what else was there that enabled you to handle that amount of pressure and that amount of stuff just going on?

Mike Curran (Guest): I'd say I think threefold. One, um, is health and fitness. Um, um, it's incredible what the human body and mind can cope if you're healthy and fit. If you're not healthy and fit, your body doesn't cope with stress too well. So that was the first thing. So I ran a lot. Um, as much as I coach sport, there's a bit of running in it when the kids are younger, but as they get older, you're more on the sideline. But. So, health and fitness, eating well? Absolutely. I had a routine. First thing every morning was a pint of water, get the engine going, um, have my breakfast at a certain time, generally high protein breakfast that will carry me through the day. Um, I'd always liken it to have your cereal in the morning. I think within 90 minutes, I'm starving again. And I realized very quickly that's the wrong fuel. So certainly taking care of my body, um, and my mental state, uh, and the best one for me was absolutely running. It was just the best way to clear the mind. And I made so many really good decisions while I was running, not thinking about them. But you end up, uh, in a phase and suddenly clarity happens because you have no more noise around you. Second to that is discipline and work, and it's a practice I continue to this day. I love everything digital, uh, I love everything connected. Um, the only paper I write is my diary. My diary is important and I plan my week, I plan my priority tasks daily and, um, my other tasks, I plan my calendar well, I make sure I plan my meetings and I have my free time. And what I found in the discipline I have is things get done and they get done at the standard they need to be done at. And that discipline continues. So I end up delivering projects on time, always, ah, on budget, um, but even down to our micro little discussions with staff for projects, um, it continued on and a really good discipline then every Monday morning. My first task every Monday morning was a review last week did not fully get done and easily carried over. So we don't allow huge job list to start around us again, thinking that idea, it's a lot easier to go one step in front of the other and eventually get to Mount Everest. But if you're just thinking about the top at the start, you're never going to get there. The third element was just passion. I would say interest, energy. I love new, exciting, and if it's a project that, uh, takes me and I have interest in, I'll put my full energy into it. So I would say threefold on that. That's your passion, energy, discipline and your style of work, of, uh, course, taking care of your physical, mental health.

Belinda Brummer (host): What would you advise people, as they might be saying that they're in the same situation as you? I haven't had a mentor. I don't know how to go about getting one. So do I purposefully go to select one or what do I look for in a potential mentor?

Mike Curran (Guest): Well, that is a challenging question because, um, I would look at the other way, and I think the onus is on management as senior managers to allow themselves to be open and allow that relationship to develop naturally, to be that accidental mentor. And if you work in an organization where you're closed in your function and you don't have access to senior management. Well, how are you ever going to find a mentor in that? Um, you're probably only mentor options are someone that's been in the role you're in for a longer period and you will learn some often, but you really want that mentor to really put fire into your career and your brain and your thinking. So, first of all, I think the onus is on companies, the senior managers to actually facilitate that, you know, have the right senior people that are open in their culture and you see it in businesses. Um, do people have closed door offices or is it open plan? Are they more concerned about the car parking space? So the well being of the staff and you see this in different cultures and businesses. From a staff member that is looking for a mentor, I think your first choice is understandable. The roles that you're going to go after, where are you going to go? Research the companies, understand what kind of companies are culturally, am I going to settle in there? Am I going to have the opportunity to learn? Is this a company that will invest in my education and me help me create a pathway from my career, whether it's here otherwise? So two sides of the approach to your answer there.

Belinda Brummer (host): Um, and just on that, researching companies and do I want to work here? Are they going to invest in me? It's too easy to be, uh, kind of by the kool aid on the training and development policies that companies have. It's probably better to have a look at their track record. Who are the people, um, that have been developed and have gone on to do wonderful things or different things and that have progressed. And you can see this by just doing some research in LinkedIn about what happened to people who used to work in a place, you know. So it's not just about what the company says, but what is the evidence of what the company says. And there will be breadcrumbs that I would suggest people just follow. Have a look what happened to people that were in that organization before. Um, so you're right. Dead right. Do your research.

Mike Curran (Guest): Absolutely, Belinda. I probably can approach every four, five or six months from somebody about something. And one of the first things I do is spend time researching and it doesn't matter what the how, what's dangled in front. It's really about the company, the organization. And there's so much available online that you can get a good indication of an employer, a business. And if I had advice to anyone, even if they're in a role that they really do not like, wait, hold out for the right role. And actually, if there is a long delay, we'll do something about it. Start educating yourself and setting yourself up to succeed, because the right roles are out there. They just not happen to be out and they're in front of you right now. But it could be tomorrow, it could be a week away or month away.

Belinda Brummer (host): Yeah. And position yourself to be able to step into that role.

Mike Curran (Guest): Absolutely. And be very open when you think help is required, whether that's simple as writing my cv. Don't be assumptive that we understand that that's what they want. Find out, ask somebody else, get help. It could be from a friend, it could be from a colleague. But understand to be open to criticism and help, that's where we start to really learn about self. What am I really good at? What are the areas, actually I need to work on to improve on? And by doing that, that self awareness, they're the real key skills anybody's looking for to drive on. And, you know, remember the old questions cv, you know, and what are you really good at and what do you need to work on? You know, the simple questions in the early days of interviews, but now they progress. I mean, at a senior stage, you really have to understand self, uh, and be cognizant of that, uh, strengths and weaknesses and weaknesses. Doesn't mean I have to go and educate myself to fix that. The very simplest is we hire the right people that are better at us than those. Build your team around you that are so much better than you. Makes your life a lot easier.

Belinda Brummer (host): Mike, my final question for you, in years to come, however many years to come, what professionally do you want to be known for?

Mike Curran (Guest): I would say in the years to come, if someone's to reflect back, as opposed to simply Mike does what he says he's going to do, that's the simplest, but certainly visionary, uh, capability of delivering a vision. And some of I can develop a culture and a workplace that people enjoy that would wake up in the morning and go, you know, I like my job. Yes, there's pressures and stresses and these things happen. But I like where I work. I like being productive. I count, I matter, I get involved. I have an opinion. If I left organizations like that, I'd be delighted.

Belinda Brummer (host): Lovely. I think, Mike, that is us.

Belinda Brummer (host): We've come to the end of another episode of the manager's moment. Thank you for listening. If you've enjoyed it, there are three things you could do. Let your friends and colleagues know about it. Follow the show and be a part of the conversation and make connections by joining the manager's moment club, LinkedIn managers moment seeing the person in this and every moment. Oh, and a shout out to boost learning where management development is done differently. To find out more, go to www.boostlearning.online.