Episode 10 Part 2 

Trailer

Are people around you so busy regulating their stress responses that they aren’t doing their job properly? If so, there might be a break-through leadership moment waiting for you.

Trauma-informed care has gained ground in the healthcare setting. It is an approach to patient care that recognises the physical changes adverse childhood experiences can have on the brain and how this shows up in affected people in their adult years. In the second part of this episode, Tracy Kite brings the notion of being trauma-informed into our workplaces.

She helps us understand what trauma-informed leadership is and the place it has in the workplace.  Anchored firmly in the understanding that managers are not therapists, why would and how can managers incorporate a trauma-aware approach in how they lead? In this conversation, Tracy provides very practical ways to support people in the work place whose stress responses may be consciously or unconsciously triggered by everyday events at work.

Tracy also revisits the supporting theme of giving feedback that features in her first book, Love to Lead. In our conversation, Tracy busts a feedback myth, and offers a far more real-world, compelling and trauma-aware approach to providing feedback.

Join us for the second part of this special episode of The Manager’s Moment, with Dr Tracy Kite, author of Love to Lead, and Lead Like you Give a F**k!.

About Tracy
Tracy commenced her career as a mental health nurse in 1984 and has remained a proud nurse, on the NMC register for the past 40 years. She worked in the NHS, becoming a ward sister aged 25 and a senior ward manager aged 27. Leadership and learning was always her core passion, and Tracy worked routinely with student doctors and student nurses throughout her NHS career.

In the late 1990s, following a few years working clinically in the private healthcare sector in specialist dementia care, Tracy switched careers to work in learning and development roles and leadership learning roles. Whilst these roles included clinical teaching and NVQ and apprenticeship programmes, Tracy’s core passion has always been in leadership learning.

In the early 2000s, Tracy helped to create a Business School in the organisation she worked in, which qualified more than 70 senior leaders in Masters in Management and other post-graduate management qualifications. She gained a Masters in Management of Change from Sussex University and a Doctorate during that time. Her research and thesis focus on human-centric leadership and the relationship between executive coaching and successful corporate leadership.

Tracy is a qualified psychological coach, focusing on executive and leadership coaching. She is an experienced Action Learning facilitator and develops leadership learning programmes for organisations. She is the author of two leadership books, which showcase her experience and research – Love to Lead (Panoma Press, 2018) and Lead Like You Give a F**k! (Rethink Press, 2024).

INTRO

Belinda Brummer (host): This is the manager's Moment, and I am your host, Belinda Brummer. 

Belinda Brummer (host): Trauma informed care has gained ground in the healthcare setting, certainly in the UK. It is an approach to patient care that recognises the physical changes adverse child childhood experiences can have on the brain and how this affects people in their adult years. In the second part of this episode, uh, Tracy Kite brings the notion of being trauma informed into our workplaces. She helps us understand what trauma informed leadership is and the place it has in the workplace, anchored firmly in the understanding that managers are not therapists. Why would and how can managers incorporate, uh, a trauma aware approach in how they lead? Uh, this is what Tracy introduces in her latest book, lead like you give an f. And in this conversation, she provides very practical ways to support people in the workplace whose stress responses may be consciously or unconsciously triggered by everyday events at work. Uh, Tracey, uh, also revisits the supporting theme of giving feedback that features in her first book, Love to lead. In our conversation, Tracy busts a feedback myth m and offers a far more real world, compelling and trauma aware approach, uh, to providing feedback, the manager's Moment, seeing the person in this and every Moment.

Belinda Brummer (host): Your first book, Love to lead, was published in 2018?

Tracy: That's right, yeah.

Belinda Brummer (host): And you have published lead, like you give an f in 2024.

Tracy: Yes.

Belinda Brummer (host): That's six years in between.

Tracy: Yes.

Belinda Brummer (host): And you mentioned that 30% of the book is new material. That sounds like more than just an update or a correction. What is that 30% about?

Tracy: It's, uh, a requirement, if you write a second edition, that you change around 15% to 30% of the content of the book. And for me, that was an evolution, really, over those years. In my thinking, I guess we all evolve our thinking when we're exposed to more experiences and more knowledge and understanding. So that's really what happened. So the new book is an evolution from, actually people we need to be leading others like, we actually give a damn about them. Um, and I used the concept of love in order not to be controversial back with the first edition, because my publisher at the time felt that using a swear word was controversial. And by love, I meant that all encompassing philosophical definition of lots of words like care and, um, compassion and kindness and respect and authenticity and all of those good things that we know intellectually to talk about when we're talking about leadership. So love was like a brief way of describing that. But over the last ten years, the concept of trauma informed care has been a big one in healthcare. And in fact, it was mentioned on the news this week in relation to maternity care in the UK. And it's a concept that allows healthcare professionals to really think about where people have come from and how the policy practises behaviours in our healthcare settings can impact how comfortable people are in their healthcare experiences. So there's a rich data set around trauma. The data set and information and research that I use comes from somebody called Doctor Bruce Perry, who's a leading expert in the world on trauma and trauma in children specifically. Uh, and there's a great book that I would always recommend if anyone wants to read about trauma and trauma informed practise, that's written by Doctor Bruce Perry and Oprah Winfrey. It's called what happened to you? And I summarise that in my new book to really describe what trauma is. In a nutshell, the research suggests, both in UK research and American research, that around two thirds of the adult population have experienced at least one trauma or adverse childhood experience, ACE for short, which has the potential to have made changes in their physical brain. Somewhere between twelve and 16% of the adult population have experienced four or more traumas or adverse childhood experiences which have had the potential to physically change their brain function. So what that means is the research says that trauma. So things like childhood neglect, physical emotional violence or abuse, sexual abuse, the usual things that we would think about in terms of trauma, but also things like divorce of parents, mental health issues in the family, a parent, uh, having been sent to prison, drug or alcohol abuse in the family, those kinds of things, they're all adverse childhood experiences or aces. And the younger those traumas happen to a child, including in the womb, the more profound impact it has on the brain, the developing brain of that child, and it physically changes the brain because the stress hormones that are released in those stressful moments are really impacting, uh, on an immature developing brain. So later on in life, that means that that individual, that person, can have any kind of effect and they may unconsciously or consciously be triggered by stimuli and pushed into a position where their brain is functioning from a stress viewpoint rather than a regulated viewpoint.

Belinda Brummer (host): Is the effect of that trauma on the brain a memory or is it a physical that it physically changes how the brain wires itself and accesses those things?

Tracy: Yeah, it's a physical change that you can see on an MRI scanner. So it kind of flies in the face of. I don't know about you, Belinda, but certainly, you know, through my career, through my adult life, you talk about, oh, uh, you know, it's okay. Because children, you know, babies and toddlers, they don't have much memory, so they can't, you know, they can't remember things. And, you know, you sometimes hear people, women usually say, oh, uh, you know, I'll leave that abusive relationship as soon as the kids are old enough to kind of understand what's going on. But actually, the damage is already done by then, way before then, way before memory, because it's a physical change in the brain.

Belinda Brummer (host): And so the effect later on in life, as you said, and I hope I'm saying it, uh, correctly, that in moments of stress, they are less likely to be able to regulate themselves. Is that what you're saying?

Tracy: Yes. They're going to have to work much harder to regulate themselves. So I want to put a caveat in here, because what I don't want to do is be saying that leaders need to take responsibility for the previous traumas of their team. They absolutely don't. And that's not what I'm saying here. It's about kindness and compassion. And really, my opinion is, in a leadership situation, you probably don't want to know the exact trauma, even if somebody knew it, you know, someone's boss. It's not for you to be counselling them or be their therapist in any way. But for me, it's about when, you know, this kind of data and research, you can't unknow it, you mustn't unknow, uh, it. And for me, leadership needs to come from a place where, what if the people that are in my team have had a traumatic experience in early childhood that has changed their brain? If we function from that space, then, uh, our leadership interventions, the way that we behave at work, the way that we encourage our team and the individuals in it to be their best self at work, needs to come from a place where we're enabling people, not disabling people through our behaviours. In other words, if I'm the kind of leader who talks too much, I have a big deal about leaders who talk too much. But if I'm a leader who talks too much, or I'm over demanding, or I shout at people, or I'm really harsh, or I'm not mannerly in my interactions with people, I could be stressing somebody to a, uh, point where they're unable to give me their best at work for all of those reasons that we've just talked about. Now that, as you start talking about it sounds pink and fluffy to some people, I would say human. But actually it hits your bottom line, because if your team are so busy trying to regulate their stress reactions, they're not giving all of their time and energy to doing the job that you're paying for them. So if you want your team to come to work and give their best and be as creative and innovative and hardworking and all of those things that you would expect them to be, you absolutely have to make sure you're leading in a way that doesn't trigger any potential problem.

Belinda Brummer (host): So the cynical person in me says, does that mean every manager has to walk on eggshells around people? Or how would a manager go about doing their work every day? With this in mind, but not being a skilled therapist, etcetera? Because that's not what we're asking managers to do or to be. But what does that actually look like if it doesn't look like walking on eggshells?

Tracy: So it definitely isn't walking on eggshells. And I'd suggest if you get this right, you can actually be more challenging. You can actually work with your teams to get the best from them through nurturing and challenging because they feel safe with you. That's the point. So definitely not walking on eggshells. It's almost the opposite in many ways, through creating the safety of a solid, strong, robust relationship. So what we know is you can mediate trauma with strong relationships. So just because you've had a lot of trauma in your life doesn't mean you're going to be some kind of fragile or unstable person. We know that if you've had really strong relationships, trusting that you can, people that you can rely on, people that you can feel safe with, then you're much more likely to be able to self regulate and not be impacted so much by those traumas. So relationship building is crucial. And I don't mean friendship, I mean solid, respectful, professional relationships. So it's a skill set, and I think, again, we mentioned this before, that if you sit enough people around a table, this all intellectually comes out. We all know this stuff, but we don't necessarily have a practise skill set. We think we do, but we probably don't. And it's complex. It's like any complex skill, learning to drive, learning to make a new device function, any of those kinds of things that we do in daily life. The more we practise it, the better we become. The more aware of it, the better we become. So it's about, firstly, awareness and, um, knowledge of the issue. Secondly, it's about noticing, noticing what's going on with your team. And again, you know, I know of Managers who talk so much or demand so much that, uh, they're not observing the responses of their team. So their team are often trying to regulate. That might mean that they look disengaged, that might mean they look like they don't care. That might mean they're daydreaming a lot, that it might mean that they're late coming to work. All of those kinds of behaviours are, uh, or can be symptoms of people desperately trying to regulate themselves. So those are signs, those are signs that leaders can observe in their team. And then that awareness of what's going on around you kicks off from, um, what we discussed earlier. Are you listening? Enough. Are you attentive to people? Enough? Are you telling them things all the time which is automatically switching off their thinking and creativity? Or are you asking, are you working with people in a way that enables them to think for themselves, be that intuitive adult that they are at home? Are you, uh, stretching them by asking those questions but not pushing them too hard? Are people having enough downtime, enough rest time? Are people able to come to you safely to say, I'm not very comfortable with that, and know that you won't punish them or humiliate them or be derogatory in any way because they've been brave enough to come to you to say, there's something not quite right here, change in behaviour in anyone that you know at work? I think it should be a red flag. I think there's a danger in saying, you know, you want to know what's going on. We need to know or understand what's going on. I think we do to an extent, but what we shouldn't be doing is trying to push people to tell us things that they might not necessarily want to or over divulge in a way that they may regret later. But it should be a flag for any leader if the behaviour of someone in their team changes. We absolutely need to address that. One of the things that I teach in my coaching for leadership modules is how, how do you do that? Because it is a skill set and we have to practise it and we can get it very wrong. And it's the getting it very wrong that causes the problems down the line, the complaints and, you know, you don't like me, and, you know, all of those value judgments are really difficult to then move, you know, move on from. If you're triggering someone's trauma response from your leadership behaviours, it's probably something smaller than that. It's probably a disengagement, it's probably the. A bit of daydreaming and people taking longer to do things that they might have done before. It might be physical in behaviour. So when people are trying to regulate, they tend to do rhythmic things. And you can see obviously in, uh, you know, some people rocking or jiggling their legs about those kinds of things. The way that we regulate ourselves in our normal daily life tends to be something rhythmic, something repetitive and calming over time. So people that jog, that's a rhythmic, repetitive movement. You know, people play drums. Lots, um, of activity, lots of physical activity tends to be repetitive and rhythmic. My husband likes to go and jump around at punk rock gigs. He knows that, ah, regulates him. Um, you know, those kinds of things. Those are all normal things that we do.

Belinda Brummer (host): So what is happening when you're regulating yourself?

Tracy: It's your body just, um, responding to a stress response, to its stress, to its senses, to its feelings.

Belinda Brummer (host): So is that regulation a form and that, as you say, that repetitive movement, is that a form of soothing?

Tracy: Yes. Yeah, that's what regulation is. We regulate to stay calm, to keep our thoughts clear, to stay in the Moment.

Belinda Brummer (host): I see somebody starting to regulate either in a meeting, so something is stressing them out or something's happening. I start to notice patterns of regulation.

Tracy: Yes.

Belinda Brummer (host): What can I do in that Moment? And then more over time? I understand building a safe environment, but in that Moment when I notice the regulation going on, what do I do as a manager?

Tracy: Stop talking and notice you'll only need a millisecond to look around, look inwards and think, what have I just been doing? What have I been saying? How have I been saying that? Have I been particularly over demanding? Have I been talking a lot? Have I been asking a lot of questions in a rapid, quick fire way? Have I said something that's a bit controversial? Ask yourself what happened in that lead up to that Moment. Just take a split second to just cheque in with yourself.

Belinda Brummer (host): So I've done that. I now, you know, I've noticed and I've identified what may have triggered this individual to move into a mode of self regulation or regulation. What do I do then, in that Moment?

Tracy: Consider taking a break? So perhaps calling a break. Oh, let's have a comfort break, you know, does anybody need anything? You know, be general about it, don't focus on the individual. It's, it's embarrassing. Even if people are aware, I mean, lots of the time people won't be aware. So call a break, allow people to go out, have a breath, you take a breath yourself. And then when you come back, if you have noticed that you've been doing something that may well have made somebody feel uncomfortable, albeit unconsciously, try and rectify that. So keep the emotion down. Nobody, no human being thinks rationally when emotions are high. So your job, uh, in order to get the best from people around you is bring the emotion back down, because our thoughts so much more rational and clear, and we're able to make better decisions and, uh, work things through in a much more creative way if our emotions are settled and calm. So that's your aim.

Belinda Brummer (host): Let's say we come back into the room and do I call out what I noticed? Do I actually say to the person, listen, I noticed you getting a little bit agitated there. You know, your energy changed. Or do you call it out? Or do you just yourself, kind of regulate yourself and bring your own self down and just carry on as if nothing happened? Is it context dependent?

Tracy: I think it is. I don't think there's any right or wrong answers here, because it depends on how well you know the people in the room, how well they know each other, and how comfortable they are with each other. You know, it can be embarrassing when somebody calls out your emotion in a room. And if people don't know each other very well, that may shoot up the emotion rather than drop it down. My gut says, make it general. Is everyone okay? So, uh, when I'm working, for example, in action Learning sets, I mean, those environments that work that we do can be really quite challenging. And it's not uncommon for people to express some quite profound emotion. I always carry tissues in my bag. Thats okay. After a time when the action Learning set is mature and they’ve gotten to trust each other and they understand what that work is about and they can lean on each other. But its still quite embarrassing for people sometimes. And I would suggest that we don’t shy away from emotion at all. Human beings come with messy emotions attached. And certainly when I started my career 40 years ago, I was told, put your mask on, leave your stuff at the door. Its not relevant at work. But it is relevant at work because we're whole humans at work. I'm not suggesting we want people running up and down the corridors howling and crying, but what I'm saying is appropriate emotion is appropriate emotion. There is no such thing as good or bad emotion. There's just emotion. So I don't think we should shy away from that. But to call one person out in a group is tough. In an action learning set, I, uh, usually cheque in and say is everyone okay? Would you like to change how we're working? At any point? Is there anything that would you know, that you want to talk about, that you want to bring to my attention, that kind of thing more generally so that people have an opportunity to speak. And then I would suggest if you're particularly worried about an individual, do it individually after be private and confidential about it. Because that's not your information to share, that's the person's information to share should they choose to.

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Belinda Brummer (host): I've seen this play out in two different ways, where it's not actually the manager who's doing the triggering and it could be for example in a team setting, in a particular meeting or a type of a situation where the manager is perhaps the facilitator of a group and there is somebody else in the group who is the stressor in this situation. What's your advice to how the manager calls that out? Because you want to create the safe space for the person who is having now to regulate. But equally, you don't want to name and shame the person who is the stressor in that Moment. Again, call a comfort break, take time out. But how do you manage that?

Tracy: So for me this is about the skills of giving great feedback. There's a lot of stuff out there on giving great feedback and I think some of it is way too complicated. So in my research I looked at this very deeply and I continue to look at this very deeply over the years since. And it's something that's in my book, which is about how can I give the very best feedback possible. I uh, won't take you through the long winded route here, but for me the key components, and this is not my view, this is my research that's come out with this. It needs to be short, it needs to be observation and uh, it needs to be behaviour based. So the only thing we should ever give feedback about is someone's behaviour, not their attitude, not their thoughts and beliefs, not their values, not I like you or I don't like you, but their behaviour. So it looks something like this in your context, uh, that you've just described. So we're in a meeting, someone's really heating you, uh, know, up. Uh, there are people becoming distressed, you call a break. You want to bring the emotion down, but actually you probably need to, you know, have a conversation with the person that's causing the stress. This is what I would say. I notice that you were pretty heated during this discussion. That's it. That is the sum total of the initial feedback that you will give. I notice that, I see this, so it's not controversial. I'm not making a judgement about you. I'm not saying I like you or I don't like you. I'm just, I'm just telling you what.

Belinda Brummer (host): I've observed and you're not even presupposing why that, why that was. You're just saying, I notice it, I notice it.

Tracy: Then you give 1 second of silence. So stop talking because that is the time that the brain needs to flip into thinking, oh, okay, you know, someone might even sort of take a breath or take a step back. Oh, crikey, was I? So you leave a Moment of awareness and a Moment of. For reflection. Brains only need 1 second for that, but that 1 second can be quite uncomfortable for you and the person. Try and hold that, don't try and fill it, don't try and backpedal, just hold the second of silence and then ask the question, were you aware that you were doing that? Or did you notice the impact that that might be having on your colleagues? And then stop talking again. So that's how I suggest now in my research, in my teaching, in my book, I call that give the feedback, asked the question. It is what it says on the tint. And it's a really important skill, really important in every aspect of feedback that you give. And it sounds simple, but it's really layered, so you're not giving somebody any reason to start getting defensive with you. And that's really important. You want to keep the emotion down, not shoot it up, because nobody is rational. When emotion is in the air, then not making any judgments, that's good for the person, it shows that you respect them. It's also good for you because it means that they can't then come back to you and say, oh, charming, you know, just insult me then. Or, you know, any of those difficult things that happen when people get a bit emotional and defensive. You want to keep the defences down and then you're giving an opportunity for somebody to have an adult interaction with you. You're not being parental, you're not treating them like a child, you're being two adults. You're saying an observation and you're giving somebody time to reflect on that observation and then you're asking a question and it leads into a calm, measured, adult conversation. And that's really important. Give the feedback, ask the question sits at the core of everything that I teach because, um, it enables trauma sensitive, adult, professional, robust conversations.

Belinda Brummer (host): I mentioned that there were two things that come to mind, two scenarios that come to mind, because these are the things that I observe most managers grapple with. So let's say a manager is having their normal weekly team meeting and the manager of the manager who doesn't normally attend that team meeting is a guest in that meeting. That manager comes in. And because their context and their perspective on perhaps what is being discussed is different, um, they have different responsibilities and their relationship with the team is different. So they are not aware of the rules of engagement, should we say in that team meeting around creating this safe space and that manager, the manager of the manager can maybe say things a little bit more harshly, can be a little bit more triggering for people just because they don't have that relationship with the team. And when you have somebody who perhaps normally flourishes in that safe environment, suddenly feels unsafe in that environment because of the presence of that manager. I have often found managers in this very tight spot. They understand what their job is as the manager of the team and they have their own values and they have been managing in congruence with those values, and suddenly now you have the pressure of the leadership being put upon them and it is the manager in that Moment that is feeling the crunch.

Tracy: Yes, yes, it's tricky, isn't it? Um, and again, there isn't only one answer to this and it depends on relationships and all of those things that we've just said. My gut says that for me, if I was in that situation, it would depend on the level of stress that that manager was creating in the room. So I'm leading a team. It's my meeting. We have, uh, my line manager come in as a guest to that meeting. They're creating some stress. I think most people realise that, you know, that's a factor, uh, in a lot of leadership dynamic and they'll probably know that person. I think if there's, if the stress remains reasonably manageable for everybody, we'll probably just acknowledge that that's the case and carry on knowing that this is a one off guest appearance by that that manager. I think if I notice that somebody was particularly distressed, I would likely say something like, I think emotions are running a bit high at the Moment, or, you know, people are feeling a bit stressed here. Could we just take a break? Give everybody time to have a coffee and take a breath. And then, you know, if I was concerned enough to do that, I might, during that break, ask to have a conversation with my line manager and do the, give the feedback, ask the question in private with my line manager. Now that is risky, of course, because it's dependent totally on my line manager, my relationship with my line manager and how that might be received. But if you follow the principles, um, of give the feedback, asked the question, it's. I noticed that during that conversation, you know, Fred became quite distressed. Uh, I'm not sure what's going on there. 1 second of silence. Could we just take that into account when we reconvene? Perhaps help Fred to, uh, kind of remain calm so that he can give us his best.

Belinda Brummer (host): So the same thing applies. Give the feedback, ask the question. And respecting the space. Taking a break, like, it's amazing what a break.

Tracy: Absolutely.

Belinda Brummer (host): It just interrupts. It completely gives space for the pause.

Tracy: Yes. Yeah. One of the questions that I asked many hundreds of managers through my research and the years since is to just, um, imagine in your mind's eye that you're at work today. I absolutely agree with you. I think the vast majority of people get up in the morning intending to go to work and do a great job. There are very few people on the planet that intend to go to work and be a complete pain in the backside and do everything really badly, it just doesn't happen. So if you come from a place where you assume that people are trying to do their best here, they might have got it a bit skewed, but they're trying or thinking that they're doing their best. You know, I say to people that, let's suppose you went to work today, something went wrong. Your line manager or someone calls you up and says, look, you know, this has gotten a really pear shape. We need to have a conversation about it. How do you want that conversation to happen? And I have never spoken to a manager at a, uh, very junior level in an organisation or a c suite executive. They all say the same things. Whoever they are, whoever they're receiving it from, they all say the same things. I want to receive that feedback. Clearly, uh, all of the stuff that we all, perhaps people of my age learned about feedback. Sandwiches. No, absolutely not. Nobody wants pink and fluffy don't go around the houses. Don't blab about other stuff. Just say it as it is. You know, just say it.

Belinda Brummer (host): We've just got a myth buster here, so. No. No feedback.

Tracy: No feedback sandwiches. It just skews the pitch. And I don't know a single adult that would say, yeah, give it to me, you know, give it to me pink and fluffy around the houses and, you know, no, everybody says, just, just say it. You know, tell me. Be respectful, obviously, don't be judgy about it, but just say it as it is. So everyone says that. Everyone says, for goodness sake, you know, let's do it somewhere that's private. I don't want everyone hearing about, you know, if you've got something to tell me, I want to be the first to know and I want to hear it on my own. I don't. I don't want to, you know, the whole world to flipping know about it. Private and confidential. You know, it's pointless giving somebody something private if you're then going to go down to the staff room and I blab it out to everybody, you know, it's our information, we'll talk about it between us. Everybody wants it soon, you know, I don't want it in three months time when it's time for my appraisal. I want it now. And then I want to be able to have a conversation with you to actually, uh, you know, and have you listen to my mitigating circumstances. Well, yeah, I, you know, I appreciate that it went pear shaped, but this was my intention in the Moment, and I want you to listen to that, even if you don't agree with me, because I didn't come to work this morning intending to make a massive mistake. That's the principle. And then I want to talk to you about it and I want to. I want the opportunity to let you know how I'm going to rectify the situation.

Belinda Brummer (host): And so everything that a manager does to create a safe space, a, uh, trauma informed space for people just to work and to be happy in the workplace and to be productive in the workplace is exactly the kind of environment you create when you are providing feedback. Yes, it is. Exactly. It's about private, respectful, listen and give pause. And give pause so that the other person can actually process what's going on and respond and give space to that.

Tracy: Exactly.

Belinda Brummer (host): So it's exactly the same.

Tracy: Yes. Even if you want to give positive feedback, because we should, as leaders, be giving a real balance of kinds of feedback, hopefully more positive than negative, to be fair. And if you get into that feedback habit, life becomes about feedback. And then teams start giving peer feedback, which is absolutely amazing and where you want to be in the workplace. But depending on people's background, any trauma, their personality, people also don't always want to hear praise publicly either, and we think they do. So give the feedback, ask the question works equally well. I noticed that you were amazing with that really difficult client earlier today. 1 second of silence. Would you be happy for me to share that with the team? Or how do you think we could get everyone working like that? Or what do you think we could learn from that really amazing interaction that you had? Any of those kinds of questions are useful, and sure, we do want to share it. And if it's appropriate for that person, we do want to say, oh, my god, this person was really amazing. But ask them first because it can be really difficult for people to hear praise publicly.

Belinda Brummer (host): Yeah, yeah. And then just to distinguish feedback from a compliment. So a compliment just sits there, right?

Tracy: Yes.

Belinda Brummer (host): Whereas the feedback is different because you've got this ask a question element that comes in behind that and it is about behaviour.

Tracy: Questions supersize your feedback. So feedback is great, but to supersize that, ask a question, you know, get someone thinking about it.

Belinda Brummer (host): This maybe is a good time for me to ask my final question. Tracy.

Tracy: Okay.

Belinda Brummer (host): In however many years time, when you're looking back on your life, on your professional contribution, what do you want to be known for?

Tracy: Gosh, that's a question. A number of years ago, when I started, ah, my doctorate, I was supervised by a, ah, lady called, uh, Joanna Kozubska. She was a professor with the business school that I did my doctorate with. And she and I had worked together on the master's programmes that I had done within the organisation I was working at the time. So she was the external accreditor representative, if you like. She was a very strong woman. She'd been the governor of the prison where Myra Hindley was, and was very strong, very much the queen's English, had an amazingly interesting background, and I was a little bit in awe of her and a little bit intimidated by her, I guess. But she really shaped the way I thought it was her idea that I should jump onto a doctoral programme. And that was pretty difficult for me to just get my head around because people like me don't do, don't do master's degrees, let alone doctorates. And I said, I remember saying to her one day, look, I can't do it. I can't, uh, I've got nothing original to say and I've got no, you know, I don't feel I've done anything amazing with my life, enough to kind of make. To make any kind of doctoral contribution to knowledge in the world. And she said, Tracy, when I look around this organisation, what I see are, uh, whole meadows full of Tracy flowers. And what she meant by that was, these are my words, not hers. So what I felt she meant by that is your contribution is in enabling people to grow and bloom at, uh, their best. She meant that in terms of the leadership work that I was doing in the organisation. I also think that what she didn't say is, sure, there are people out there who do great big gestural things, who talk to rooms full of hundreds of people and public speak and create new things and all of those kinds of things, but what you do, your superpower, is growing individuals to bloom, um, at their best. And that had a massively profound impact on me. Also made me realise that you don't have. Have to talk to rooms full of people or create major change or whatever that is you can. I always felt afterwards that my legacy is that I am changing the world one person at a time. So that's what I'd like to look back on my life as being.

Belinda Brummer (host): We've come to the end of another episode of The Manager's Moment. Thank you for listening. If you've enjoyed it, there are three.

Belinda Brummer (host): Things you could do.

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