Episode 8 Trailer

Amidst a global awakening spurred by the Black Lives Matter movement, this episode explores the transformative power of personal action. It’s a testament to how a spark of courage to speak out can leave an enduring legacy.

Join Meena Sebastian, a British senior sales leader with Mauritian roots, as she unveils her life’s learning curve. She delves into the subtle yet significant impact of micro-aggressions, the enlightening path of understanding others’ experiences, and the pivotal role of safety and support in the workplace. It’s a story of reflection, change, and the everyday acts that foster a culture of security and inclusion.

About Meena

Meena is a sales leader known for driving double-digit growth across diverse sectors, including Edtech, Healthcare data and analytics, media, and healthtech. 

Show Notes

The music you hear in the background at the beginning of the episode is Black Lives Matter, by Dax.  

Meena Episode Full plus intro

[INTRO ELEMENTS]

Meena Sebastian: In 2020, there was a gentleman who was essentially killed by police in America as a result of racist abuse, um, by the police. And it was harrowing, it was captured on telephone video and it was broadcast to the world and that really called out certain behaviours.

Belinda Brummer (host): In 2020, as the world grappled with a pandemic and its cascade of challenges, lockdowns, financial insecurity and a collective reckoning with grief and isolation, a movement for racial justice surged globally, sparked by an unjust killing in America. Black Lives Matter echoed in streets worldwide, signalling a profound awakening amidst the crisis. This episode dives into the personal story of a manager who, inspired by these events, found her voice an ignited change. Her story is one of courage, growth and the impactful legacy she forged by embracing empathy and understanding in her workplace.

Meena Sebastian: So my name is Meena Sebastian. I'm based in London, the UK. Obviously I have an Indian name. My name is Meena. So people just thought, oh, yeah, she's Indian, but she's not born and brought up here. Family background is from Mauritius. My first job was what would now be called an, uh, SDR role, but was then a business development executive. And my most recent role, um, was chief sales officer. And we met some time ago at Mind Leaders ThirdForce. When you were working in HR and I was in sales.

Belinda Brummer (host): This is The Manager's Moment and I am your host, Belinda Brummer.

Meena Sebastian: I started off accidentally falling into sales, um, with a graduate programme that ended up somewhere in London working in debt collection, selling to finance people, which was not exactly what I was passionate about. I don't know how I ended up doing that, but it did start me off in sales and I did it because there's a great graduate, um, development programme and great training. But that led me to find what I was really passionate about, which was going into sales using my languages. I had a language degree and I really wanted to use it. So that was the thing that I was willing to not compromise on, but make lots of other compromises for. As it was a debt collection agency that I was selling services for, it was being able to work with European clients and talk to clients in that way. Um, and in some cases, because it was a small business, I also got to collect debts in Spanish I remember doing for a certain large, um, software organisation on their behalf, which was really strange, but um, definitely a way of Learning, and it really did give me a good, solid background. And the really biggest big thing about that is it made me start talking to finance directors, financial controllers, and really understanding those foundations of business. So it was really understanding about finance, really getting a good idea of the impact that finance made. And that actually is a thread that came across in all different parts of my career, as there's a massive link between sales and finance, because if you understand the numbers, you can understand how business works and it tell stories, and that's really, really important. So moving on from that, I ended up going from finance to training, really, that was my passion. Previously, I went to Spain and France and taught English as a foreign language. And obviously seeing people learn, and personally, I do have a lifelong passion for Learning. It's something I still continue to do, always trying to look for different ways to improve. But I being able to help other people learn and people that I looked up to, but selling to them, selling a service of Learning, was actually really simple because it was something that I could easily get behind, something I really could see an impact, and also helping people do their jobs. And it was a really clever way to have exposure to so many different industries, so many different places. It was also an international environment. It was like working for the United nations. It was a great place to work from that perspective. And as a young person in their twenties that, uh, had just moved to London, working near Buckingham palace, it was great. And then you got all these people in person for training that came in from so many different industries and actually learning that they're just people. And just because someone's a senior sales director or a senior leader, everyone has the same insecurities, everyone has the same imposter syndrome. I didn't know that it was that at the time, but everyone has those same things. The area that I found super interesting was people that worked in tech, because there were a lot of people that were engineers and they didn't have leadership skills. And also on top of that, there were things such as working cross culturally, and there were specific courses we had around cross cultural skills for working with certain cultures and, uh, countries, and how communication styles are so different. And that was absolutely insightful because someone based in the Netherlands, for example, is incredibly direct speaking compared to someone who sugarcoats it and does it very differently in England or someone in the US has a very different style to someone, um, who's British. Those based in India have, again, another very different style. And then learning about things such as saving face, those types of things are really, really interesting. And then actually my first management, um, role was in this organisation where I basically started remote managing a team in Chennai. Obviously, I have an Indian name. My name is Meena. So people just thought, oh yeah, she's Indian, but she's nothing. When you've been born and brought up here and then your family background is from Mauritius, it's a massive melting pot of so many different cultures. But then also you've been brought up British. You don't understand that there are certain ways where people say yes to you every time and you go, do you understand? And they say yes. But they did not understand, they just said yes because that was just their way of working and that was a huge Learning curve. So, number one, working with people that I'd never met before. And in those days we didn't have video calls, it was all on the phone. It was picking up a phone, talking on a phone and having that chat and having to remote manage someone and not really know if they got it or not. You had to just do everything in the voice. So that was really challenging. But it was a great way to start because I had basically cried out for some. Okay, I've learned all about this management and leadership. Please, can I do some? And I was very lucky to have great people surrounding me. I had a great line manager that I started with and eight people that I was shadowing. So as a junior person, I had amazing people to learn from that really equipped me because you had this level that you worked with at, uh, so many different levels of the organisation that were all great at what they did, but you took different bits. I was really lucky. I was like a little magpie and I just pinched different things, but then made it my own style. And I saw the best account management that people did. I saw the best new business approach that people did and that was really inspiring. And again, this is a generational thing, but being in an office with people, surrounded by them meant that you had more things that you could understand and take from people. And there was a little bit more time spent on people, talk about water cooler moments, but it really was a thing where you really learned. And there were also those informal coaching sessions. Basically, that's what they were. When you went to make a cup of tea for everyone and you went down with someone and you go, I've just had a really bad call. Oh, I felt really bad after this. And people were able to help you do that. So I'm very mindful of that. When I remember how I did that, type of thing and how to do that in the new modern environment as well. And don't get me wrong, there were lots of things that weren't great about commuting in or having work take over your life and all those things. I was there for seven years, so I basically felt institutionalised by the time I left. It was amazing because I got, uh, the, the reason I stayed for so long was I got such great progression. I got lots of training. Every time I needed more, I could get more. The other people that I had amazing access to were all the training consultants. So these people were top of their game, paying them huge day rates and they were consultants. But on top of it, by working with them you learned so much and it was just because you were selling Learning, it was just the environment where you were able to learn. And people were always so generous with their time and people were always very generous with advice and really trying to work. In a way. Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of hard, isolated work that you have to do with business development, outreach and that side of things, and really trying to learn as much as possible, especially when you didn't have the context of the business itself. However, having the insight sort of gave you a short circuit into that straight away and that was so valuable. I love the fact that I would walk into a room and someone's speaking French and someone's speaking Spanish and someone's speaking German, and then they're doing it in a different industrial sector. I really wanted to manage my own team, but when you're in a large organisation, there's only so much that you can progress to. So in order to progress, you need to move on. And in my case, that ended up me moving to a, uh, different role and moving to the world of e Learning and edtech. And so that was where essentially it was my first proper management job and that was great because it was my first player manager role. I had to do my own sales as well. But managing two people at the time, I was, I think I was 29, and the two people that I had remote direct line management for were both older than me, wiser than me. One of them was technically far superior than I was because they were completely new to sales and had actually worked in our implementation team. And, um, the other person was incredibly experienced, really knew their stuff. So I sort of came in and straightaway had massive impostor syndrome. But I did have an amazing line manager. So the person that looked after the team, he was incredibly experienced, really knew his stuff and was very supportive. And then I brought to the table the sales training, the sales enablement side, because I'd had that exposure. That was what I really could add value on. Um, so everyone worked out well. We've all got these strengths and let's use each other's strengths to make ourselves sort of a really good sum of parts. And once we got there, uh, that was where it really happened. And again, having older people to work with who were older than me and more experienced meant that I learned so much from them in that perspective, but also just from things such as feeling safe psychologically, which was really, really important because it was just was a place that you felt safe. It felt like an environment that people just wanted to help you and people were really friendly. Though in my case I've been very lucky that later on my career I've had the privilege of having executive coaching and being able to work out what do I need to do to improve myself from within that is going to make me a better leader, because it's about making sure that you can really understand what is it about me that can help other people be the best that they can be. And that is something I'm really passionate about, is about helping people be the best that they can be, as I try and do for myself. But if you're not leading by example, there's just no point.

Belinda Brummer (host): I personally think you've spoken a little bit about leadership. You've also spoken about doing a master's in management, you've spoken about being a manager and you've also had leadership, executive coaching. And so there is this interchangeability, it seems, between leadership and management for you. And yet I do sense that for you, they are different for you. When you think about leadership and management, what does management mean to you then?

Meena Sebastian: For me, management is more of the structural, it's more of the hands on, it's more of the implementation side of the management role and the management frameworks, whereas leadership is all about the behaviours, what you lead by example with and, um, how you are and how that really influences and maybe probably more around the emotional leadership as well. So emotional resonance is the way in which a leader really can resonate with their whole audience and, um, that passes down through the organisation. If we all have the attitude that yes, it's difficult, but we can do this and we are resilient and we can get on and work through this together, everyone will get that. It gets sucked up like a sponge and it passes through for everyone. But if it's not so positive in that way, then that brings everyone down. Um, and that's not what we want.

Belinda Brummer (host): As you reflect on your own Learning and professional journey, has there been something or a Moment that really made a huge difference in the Moment or a little difference in the Moment, but that has gone on to change you?

Meena Sebastian: And the answer to that is, yes, there has been something that happened back in 2020, which was a time of change for everyone. I think we all went on individual, um, journeys during that time. And in my case, I had been in an organisation for a considerable amount of time. The organisation had been bought by a new plc and that led to changes and different cultures meshing with the old culture of the organisation that had joined. By 2020, that integration has happened. But as we know, I was working in healthcare. Covid hit, uh, and then a lot of things came out during that time that made people look inside themselves. And also at that time, the George Floyd incident happened. I can't remember the date, but I, uh, do remember in 2020, there, uh, was a gentleman who was essentially killed by police in America as a result of racist abuse by the police. And it was harrowing, it was captured on telephone video and it was broadcast to the world and that really called out certain behaviours. For the first time, I think people were able to have a conversation about that, but not in just a dismissive way, but actually in a much more formative way than we could say. So everyone had talked about equality and diversity and inclusion and I was talked about, everyone went on. As we all know, the trend was in large organisations. Everyone went on, some training, you did some training, everyone sat in a room and a lot of people didn't actually say what they really thought as, ah, someone who's not really. I've always tried to fit in as, uh, someone from heritage, that is Mauritian. I've been very proud of my heritage, very proud of my roots. I am British, but I don't look traditional British white. I come from a generation where people had to integrate, people had to fit in, people had to sound the same. Even a regional accent was something that people covered up. Um, so it's a really interesting transformation that the world has gone through. I personally probably hadn't had addressed a lot of this, um, but that incident was really interesting in the fact that. How organisations acknowledged it and an email was sent out and remember, I was working within a Plc that was global. So there was an office in America, there was an office in Europe, there was an office everywhere and an email was sent out that was just so, um. Um. How do I put it? Didn't really do anything. It was just very generic. It didn't really address anything and it didn't really acknowledge that certain people would feel a certain way.

Belinda Brummer (host): What was the email about?

Meena Sebastian: Um, it was just a generic email just acknowledging this has happened, blah, blah, blah. So I don't know whether it's stupid or not, but, um, I decided later that evening to send an email directly replying back, saying to the CEO and the HR Director, I can't believe you've written this. I don't think it really acknowledges it. What can we do as an organisation to actually do something about it? It's all well and good saying something, but this is just words. We need actions and I don't think this is good enough. And a good reflection of the organisation, just a little bit of background to that is, previously we had had some employee engagement surveys, and as someone who sat in middle management there, and as one of the only female leaders and leaders of any ethnic minority, a lot of people turned to me to say, hey, why has this feedback come like this? Why are people saying certain things? And people didn't really know? So the great thing is, we, as a sales leadership team, had some awareness that there may be some issues, but people weren't speaking up about that. So when this happened, and obviously Covid hit, it seemed that this was an opportunity to actually. Well, I think we were all just in very different worlds and different ways and we were trying to do a lot of things and it seemed like, as an organisation, we could be better. And I think it was, for me, it was having the courage to speak up and say, I don't think this is right. And I didn't think I was capable of that. But for some reason, I think maybe a glass of wine might have helped. I'll confess also bits of anger and frustration over how things have been over the last few years and the transition the organisation was going through and the fact that we seem to do nice tick box exercises. But when I actually talked to people who for the first time really were talking about things like this, people were saying, well, yeah, but we're not doing that much now. The other thing that had also really affected me and had a massive change in how I behaved is, as I said before, I've always been influenced by the people I'm surrounded by. I've always been very privileged to work with people. And as I was working on a project with the NHS, um, as in the uk national health service, around setting up a ward on race equality, it was something that I'd had access to the leading light in the field and talking to them and then saying well this is what we're doing, these are the projects, these are the types of things that we are doing to help that. Um, because as we know, uh, the health service is one of the biggest employers in the UK. It's reflective of society and it's one of the most diverse areas. But even they're admitting we need to do things to change that. So one of the ways to do that was an awards programme, which was wonderful. Also seeing the project where you're really recognising those leaders from at that time it was labelled BAme, but now we say global majority background. Um, that was absolutely wonderful to see what people had achieved in those projects. And so I'd been doing all this work with the client and it was sort of almost, dare I use the healthcare analogy again, physician heal thyself. And so I've been doing all this wonderful work, uh, really feeling like seeing we were acknowledging the progress and the impact that was being made in the NHS, but in my own organisation we weren't doing it. So that's why the frustration got to the level where I had to send that email and um, the CEO replied back and I was so shocked.

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Belinda Brummer (host): I'm speaking with Meena Sebastian Bastian, a British senior sales leader of Mauritian descent. Before the break, Meena spoke of the frustration of receiving a rather generic email from her employer in response to Black Lives Matter and sending her reply.

Meena Sebastian: And the CEO replied back and I was so shocked that I actually got an email saying um, yeah, thanks Veena for your email. Can we have a chat about this? So I ended up on a teams call with the CEO and HR Director and what was great is they said yeah, we can do better, what do you think we could do? And I said well I’ve done all this client work and um, why don’t I just ask my clients what things have worked really well? And I suggested a few things like why don’t we set up some networks or why don’t we do some specific areas of resources where we could train people or why don't we have a reverse mentoring programme or why don't we? These are all the things that they've done, these were the types of things, and I can get access to this knowledge from that. What he said was, no, we need to do something globally. It's not just about doing something in the UK, in London, it's about doing something globally. What we did was set up an EDI steering group with a, uh, representative representing every single country in the business. And it was great for the first time, one, to meet colleagues throughout the business, but also to actually get people of all different levels within the organisations who were really passionate and really cared about this, but also to find a new network of supportive people to learn from. And everyone was really honest about that. We did not know enough. And then we had our wonderful Learning and development team come in who were like, oh, this is brilliant, but it's great that it's being driven from within.

Belinda Brummer (host): What do you think about either your email or the Moment or the problem that you highlighted actually got a reply, because surely it would have arrived one in many other emails, in lots of other different priorities. What about it do you think actually stopped him or her in their tracks?

Meena Sebastian: Well, uh, apparently there were some other emails that were sent. It wasn't just me that sent an email, but I think it was because I proposed a solution and I proposed the reason why. Because I had seen what solutions had been and I was trying to be as constructive as possible. It wasn't just a moan.

Belinda Brummer (host): So you spoke up. It changed things in the organisation. Did it change things? Did the organisation run with all those things? Like, uh, certainly the EDI group was brought together, it changed things in the organisation. You were part of those changes, you spoke up. What changed for you.

Meena Sebastian: So, interestingly enough, the changes weren't quick enough for me. I ended up leaving the organisation before the long lasting change happened. But what was great is we started the momentum of, one, talking about it and two, bringing on the change. And the really lovely legacy is that having caught up with, um, some of my team and people since leaving, is we now have a specialist Edi person, Orlando Dei personnel, we say. So I think the fact that they've invested in ahead for that area in 2024 or before that is just wonderful to see the progress made there. Um, and that is really what good was looking like. And it's so nice to see that.

Belinda Brummer (host): Legacy that will, you know, obviously change things for other people. How has that experience, any part of that experience, changed you?

Meena Sebastian: From my personal perspective, it meant that I went on a Learning journey. There were a lot of things that I didn't know about. It wasn't just about race, it was about diversity and inclusion as a whole. So it was really me going on a Learning journey and, um, really starting to read the literature that was out there, really getting into the resources and still continuing, and also admitting that I still don't know anything. A lot of people came to me and asked me certain questions, like, well, yeah, black lives Matter, but what about all lives Matter? And being asked those questions and being. And really struggling to answer, actually. And so I realised I had to start Learning again, and it was an area that I didn't expect to have to learn about. And also, you need to have the whole of an organisation included in a change like that, and everyone really ramping up, learning as a whole and going on a journey together. And I think being really honest about that was really helpful. And also having opportunities to do training, such as things on microaggressions, for example, that people didn't realise. And then also reflecting back on, oh, I've had loads of these experiences in the past and, oh, I have trauma from this and I didn't even know. So it took me on a personal journey as well, of acknowledging a lot of things that perhaps had been brushed over the carpet for so many years. Um, and I think that's made me, I'm hoping it's made me a better person and a better manager as a result.

Belinda Brummer (host): You went on this journey of educating yourself, doing more reading, etcetera, and yet you follow very closely on that by saying, actually, I have these experiences. There is that tension between education going and reading about this, researching more, and yet this very podcast is about people's personal experiences, because it is that, that we learn from, it's from that that we grow. What was the education journey that you took yourself on in terms of just educating yourself on this? How was that different? Or how did that support augment or contradict your own personal experience?

Meena Sebastian: I think it was more about reading about what had happened to other people and then also seeing there was so many communities and people that shared experiences with each other. So it was about talking to people and having honest, open conversations with people about their experiences in an organisation, and also helping them, um, feel free to call out when something was wrong, which is so important. And what was really lovely was having people who were in their twenties that, uh, were, uh, coming up to me and saying, thanks for saying what you said. We needed someone to speak up on our behalf. And now I feel like I've got more courage to say something and also I can have some difficult conversations with people as a result of that. That, for me, was what made a huge difference, because I felt that, well, in two ways, this is the organisation where I became a parent for the first time. So I also had a bit of a, if I can't make the world better for the next generation, well, then what is the point? And number two was, if I can't make the world better for people coming up through the ranks who are earlier, uh, on in their career, that's really important to me as well. So it was those two things. And then also for me, it was reflecting on what had happened to me in previous roles back in the day where things weren't said. And that's not just from a, uh, diversity and inclusion, but that's just being a woman in a sales role that was traditionally very male, and just really looking back and sort of seeing and reflecting on those and how that tests your skills of resilience, motivation, and, um, in my case, it drove me harder to be even more focused on what I was doing. So it's really reflecting back reading, but then using the reading to help reflect on other things and themes that you wouldn't have noticed before.

Belinda Brummer (host): How does this change you as a manager?

Meena Sebastian: From a management perspective, it meant that I wasn't scared about having certain conversations with people and also not being afraid to be called out on myself, because obviously we all make mistakes, as we know we never get it 100% right. So it was just about having the honesty to have conversations. And also some people saying, actually, I'm not comfortable having this conversation with you. Go away. And that is really, really important to make sure people feel psychologically safe. I think that is so important. And I'm sure, I think it's a theme for everyone that, uh, if people don't feel safe in an environment, especially in a work environment, they can't do their best work. And what I think in sales is, if you are not mentally on your a game all the time, psychologically, you cannot have the resilience to deal with the rejections of when people say no, that type of, um, rejection that you get. So it's about, yes, we all need to develop a thick skin, but what is the extra load that people are taking with them into the workplace? And obviously, back in the day, we all thought we had to separate our work lives and our home lives. Then Covid happened, and then things meshed a bit more, and now we look at a person holistically. And I think as a manager, that's helped me to understand, oh, yeah, this person is not just my KPI, and we're all working towards this target and objective, but also we need to look at that holistic person and that is so important. Looking at what else is affecting that person's behaviour, all that, or why they're not so motivated right now, or why are they super motivated right now? What's driving that and how can we help diminish or support that in the right way for them?

Belinda Brummer (host): That's a wonderful thing you've said there, because, you know, there are terms that come in and out of the spotlight, and psychological safety is one of those terms that is very in the spotlight at the Moment. And I love the way that you have, in a very simple way said if you don't feel safe at work, you're not going to do your best work. Feel that I can speak up, that I can be myself, that there is an understanding, that there is a lot more that I bring or that comes with me, whether I want it or not, into the workplace that gets in the way of me doing my best work. So what are the kind of things, Lina, that you either from your own experience of saying, well, this would have given me safety, or as a manager, what would you be doing that says, this is how I create that safe space for my people.

Meena Sebastian: And I think that is something that always comes across in interview processes. Personally, I think from your first interaction with the line manager myself, or first interactions with me, with a new recruit or direct report, you sort of feel that from the beginning and it's about trying to work out what's the right balance to strike here. And then as you get later on into the interview process, how far can I push this person? And they do it with you and you do it with them, and that's when you realise, okay, they're in a good place, they do feel safe with me, and then you can push them a bit further. And I think that is so important because it's, it's about mutual trust working with people and it's about mutual respect, and then it's about, okay, but actually, I can bring this value here and then you can bring this to the table. And that's when I feel that, and I've noticed this as I've got more senior and going through interview processes later on in my career, how important that is. Um, again, when recruiting my teams and being recruited myself and that I find, um, really sets a tone for how people join an organisation as well as how they leave an organisation. And also it adds to really big things in what gets reflected back in their home life and the overall life of people. And then that passes down, obviously, I'm, um, customer facing, that passes down and is reflected to customers. And the thing that customers always notice is a culture of an organisation and you're more likely to buy something or work with a partner that looks after its stuff.

Belinda Brummer (host): I read, or I came across something a while ago that said Dei, um, Edi, as you know it, ah, as a thing, is not having the impact in the corporate workspaces that it should, that it needs to have, and it's not having the impact that the investment in it would suppose it should have. I'm not asking you to solve that big question, or answer that very, very big question. I'm interested for you, Meena, as a person, and for you, Meena, as a manager, from your experience, your first hand experience, what makes a place inclusive and safe for you and goes to the heart of what DEI inaction really does look like?

Meena Sebastian: That's a really good question. So, uh. It is interesting, and it is really frustrating that since all the impact that was made in 2020, because I saw it happening globally with everyone, that things haven't moved. And actually, even in the NHS, there's been steps that have gone back as opposed to forward. And I hate to say it, but it's just a reflection on society and how the world is. So it's about. The world was very different in 2020 to how it is now, and everyone's gone to the new normal and that's then moved on and then now we're in a period where economically, the world is different and that changes behaviour. Anyway, as you said, there's nothing we can do to do to really solve that. But I do think there has been some impact that has been made in this space and the fact that some of us have been on journeys and actually lots of people have been on journeys. The point is, there's more awareness in the workplace than there has been and there are some wonderful ways of inclusivity that I've seen that had really made a difference. And one of the things that I did was acknowledged. I had a lovely Edi calendar and used to acknowledge certain celebrations and, oh, this is a great excuse for us to eat cake. Let's all celebrate this and do that. Or, um, yes, we need to have some doughnuts because there's a Jewish festival that does this, or it's Eid, let's celebrate. Or actually being aware that people are fasting during a, uh, period and maybe you don't want to be bringing food to a meeting, if you've got an in person meeting, just small things to be considerate and kind. And I think the thing for me is if I'm in a workplace that has compassion for others and respect for others, I think that's the most important thing. And that is the key takeaway about being psychologically safe. It's about having some kindness is so simple.

Belinda Brummer (host): I love that it's the small things, you know, we can have big Dei strategies and all of that is very welcome. However, it's in the small things in life, we experience the small moments and those are our memories, right. And those are our influences and our points of trauma are those small things. And kindness, compassion, as you say, being considerate, being aware. One of the things that you. When I asked you, what do you mean by education in this regard? It was about sharing other people's stories, hearing other people's stories. So it's actually taking the time to share, to listen and to being open to hearing somebody else's story and, uh, somebody else's perspective, and then also celebrate. Celebrate not just the difference, but just not celebrate them as differences, but celebrate them because it's something to celebrate in somebody else's life and being a part of that. So how do you do Dei on an everyday basis? It's in the small moments. It's in the everyday moments where kindness, consideration, awareness, sharing, caring shows up. And that's what you've said here today.

Meena Sebastian: And actually a really lovely way of illustrating that is I actually left that organisation at the end of 2020. And as, ah, someone who is Hindu but never really did anything to celebrate that, I happened to leave round Diwali time. And as part of my leaving do, a lot of people came in, only a few people actually, because there were rules and there were only so many allowed at the time in a room. But, um, I remember those that came in from my team. We had little Diwali celebration, had Indian sweets and things like that. And it was just really nice to celebrate something with another. And that sort of went hand in hand, that we were just celebrating something together and that's something that keeps on happening now. And I just love the fact that this just adds to the richness of the workplace. Uh, it just makes life more fun and it adds something more it hasn't taken away. And that, I think, is, for me, if we can continue to do that, we're doing it in schools, we're doing it in workplaces, that can only lead to things improving.

Belinda Brummer (host): As you look back on your professional career, what would you like to be known for?

Meena Sebastian: I think the thing that I'd like to be known for is someone that isn't scared or frightened to make a change and to go on a journey and help others go on that journey with them. Um.

Belinda Brummer (host): We've come to the end of another episode of the manager's Moment. Thank you for listening. If you've enjoyed it, there are three things you could do. Let your friends and colleagues know about it. Follow the show and, um, be a part of the conversation and make connections, uh, by joining the Managers Moment club on LinkedIn. The Managers Moment, seeing the person in this and every moment, and a shout out to Boost Learning where management development is done differently. To find out more, go to www.boostlearning.online.