Episode 5 Part 2

Self-sabotagers. Internalisers. The quiet people. The nay-sayers. People are people. What is the job of the manager when people don't show up as we expect them to? 

This is the second of a two-part episode and in this part, Brenda McGuirk zooms in on the individual in the team. She reflects on the tyranny of having to be a team player and warns against the manager, through their behaviours, demonising somebody in the team. 

She offers a way for the manager to create an environment that facilitates, not isolates, the quiet or dissenting voices in a team. 

If part 1 was about teams in moments of change, this part of our conversation is about the person in the team. And of course about Brenda herself and why she is very happy at this stage in her career not to be managing people.

About Brenda

Brenda is passionate about facilitating improvement in Education, in particular access to Literacy. Understanding where true value lies and solving problems with dynamic teams is where she works best. 

She has been a part of the strategic teams establishing the first Industry led Ed Tech applied research centre in Trinity College Dublin, the world’s first fully digital animation studio in the USA and the first major animation studio in Ireland.

Her specialist areas include, Leadership, Relationship Building, Innovation, Design Thinking, Communication, Collaboration and Facilitation. 

Brenda McGurk (Guest): An orchestra is made up of many instruments, but they do need to learn how to play together. But that doesn't mean they do that all day, every day.

Belinda Brummer (host): This is the second part of a two part episode. My guest is Brenda McGuirk, who is currently the Head of Product in an educational technology company called Soapbox Labs, based in Dublin, Ireland. In part one, our conversation explored the influences that people and circumstances had on.

Belinda Brummer (host): Brenda's early career moves and how these influences shaped the manager she is and the choices she makes in and outside of the workplace. She also took us through an example of what she means by a manager creating the environment for change to happen when a process or team wants to change itself.

In part two, we continue our conversation. This time, we zoom in on the individual in the team, because people are people, and they don't always show up as we expect them to. What then is the job of the manager? And what does this very experienced manager who is enjoying not managing people at this stage in her career, what does she want to be known for in years to come?

Belinda Brummer (host): People are people, and you can show up, and the rest of the team can show up, but there are people who don't show up in the way we either expect them. So it can be surprising how they show up, and that surprise can be good or bad, or it can just be that they. The way that they're showing up, because we all show up, but it's about how we show up and that how when they do show up, that it is actually not helpful, not helpful to the moment, not helpful to their colleagues, not helpful to you, in many cases, sabotaging themselves.

Brenda McGurk (Guest): Self-sabotage is a huge thing you see in people.

Belinda Brummer (host): Yeah. And we see that in daily lives, we see that in work. So when people don't show up as we expect them to show up, or as we need them to show up, the question is, what do we do? That notion of self-sabotage, how do you see that playing out in work?

Brenda McGurk (Guest): So I suppose it can manifest in many ways. Sometimes you have people who. There's this term of being a team player, and in the kind of environments I've worked in, um, I've worked with a lot of high performing teams, and I've been really lucky to be part of teams like that. But it takes a long, long time to get there. And the key, in my opinion, is trust of everything else, of any of the skills, any of your communication, whatever you have. Trust is what it comes down to, knowing that everybody has each other's back. And, um, if one person in the team is struggling the others are there to pull them along. That can't be a long term situation, but that, that needs to happen. Every now and then you'll have somebody who isn't a, uh, I'm using air quotes, team player, and you have to figure out if that's okay. A lot of the time, think about facilitation as being sitting down with two groups or two people and facilitating them to come to an agreement. That's not what I mean by facilitation. I mean making the space for people to be the best they can be and to achieve what they want and to be the happiest that they can be at work. You know, we don’t all have to go around smiling and clapping, but people spend more time, we know this, with their work colleagues and at work than they do with their families. So it has to be a fulfilling environment for them. And sometimes you're trying to anticipate that, and sometimes you're having to be very explicit about it. But if that person who's not a team player is impacting on other people or preventing something from happening, they need to know that you're not asking people to change their personality. Nobody has the right to do that. You can't enter into any relationship, whether it's personal or work or, um, commercial, and say, oh, I don't like the way you're doing that. I like it to be done this way. So do it this way, please. You have to sometimes go back and remember, why did we hire this person? What was it about this person that impressed us? What skills are they bringing to the team? Does that outweigh the current impact? Okay, what do we need to facilitate with this person? Do we need to allow them to be something of a solo player, but equally sit with them and say, I have some feedback for you. Be very specific about what the scenario is, and ask them to solve the problem.

Belinda Brummer (host): I find this interesting, Brenda, because personally I, as a professional myself, who has worked in organizations, I talk about it as the tyranny of the notion of being a team player. Cards on the table. I am not a team player. I don't do team sports. I don't do, um, team activities. I love my friends, and when we get together, we have a great gaggle. I like to collaborate with people, but I don't like to work alongside people. I'm sure you've come across people like me in the workplace, and I'm curious about how people would manage somebody like me in the workplace, where there is this tyranny of being a team player. How do you help that person who likes to collaborate but not work in the team?

Brenda McGurk (Guest): I think having those open conversations and trustful conversations that are useful and helpful and supportive to that person, you don't walk in and say, uh, we have a team culture here, and you need to conform to our team culture. It's back to something we've talked about for years. We hire people for their differences. We hire people for qualities that they exhibit at an interview. Sometimes you hire them purely because they have a skill, and you need that skill, and you're desperate to get it through the door, and that's okay sometimes, too. But then we start to squeeze it out of them by saying, this is the culture, this is how we perform. Instead of saying, the way that person is performing might be of interest to us, how might we facilitate this? Because what they're doing over here might be. They might be an engineer. What they're doing over here is incredibly performative, but the team are struggling with them. And so now your facilitation is about giving feedback to that person, but presenting them with the facts. That person's unlikely to respond to emotional language. They're unlikely to respond to. Oh, your teammates want you to talk to them more. That's their idea of help. You need to help them to choose moments when collaboration is useful, effective, and of value. And you need. What you need that person to see is the value isn't always for them. That's what that person will probably struggle with. They will come in and collaborate when the value is clear for them. They tend not to always see the value for other people. Now, I'm generalizing, obviously, because sometimes you have to a little bit, and sometimes it's like, I'm sorry, but there are times when the benefit of the team outweighs your personal need to be left alone, and you're going to have to put time aside for that. If you're getting to a point where you're finding too many meetings, too much time, people talking and not doing so, they tend to be people who very quickly know what needs to be done and get in and do it. But there are other people, maybe, who are more collaborative. You need to think it through. One of those people, you know, I'll kind of bounce off people a lot, because sometimes I just. I need to validate my head, what I'm doing, and often I'm literally using them as a sounding board. If they don't respond, it probably doesn't make any difference. But I'm thinking out loud, even though I know what I need to do. And that can be maddening.

Belinda Brummer (host): People reporting into a manager who does that, that can be quite challenging because you look to that person as an authority and you take everything that they say exactly to be an instruction or the way that needs to. How do you manage yourself in that moment?

Brenda McGurk (Guest): Then I'm really clear. I know what I'm doing it and I go, okay, I'm thinking out loud now, bear with me. Um, I'm processing something out loud because that's my personality and I'll say, okay, bear with me, I'm processing out loud. I am going somewhere with this. And that calms the person down from having to take everything on board and respond to it because quite often the internalisers and the people in the team are the people you have to watch because quite often they have the most valuable, not always, but sometimes they have the most valuable information or observation to bring.

Belinda Brummer (host): Internaliser. That's an interesting word. Talk to me, what do you mean by an internaliser?

Brenda McGurk (Guest): People who would never blurt something out at a meeting, you know, like me, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm very conscious and I try not to take over and I try to make sure everybody's voice is heard and I'll make a point of saying, so, Belinda, um, we haven't heard from you. And that person is often the one that removes the heat and light from a situation and is able to say, well, I really don't think we should be doing that whilst everyone else has kind of gotten carried away with something. And you have to know that you need to listen to that person. Whether you agree with them or not in the long run is irrelevant, but they are bringing a different point of view and that is so valuable.

Belinda Brummer (host): Sometimes those people end up being perceived as, and they say it, uh, as the doom and gloom in the room. How do you as the manager handle that on, um, behalf of the person? Because they have a profile. You want people to listen to them. So really this is about how you show up in that moment rather than them. Right. And how do you support the person? Because sometimes it is doom and gloom.

Brenda McGurk (Guest): Mhm.

Belinda Brummer (host): But how do you support the person who is that voice that people go, oh, here she goes again, the negative one in the room. How do you handle that?

Brenda McGurk (Guest): I think that's an excellent question and I think it's really, really important because I have seen examples of how the behaviour of a manager influences the whole team's behaviour and the ability to demonize somebody. It's a very dangerous thing. So you have to be respectful and you have to listen. Belinda, that's interesting. Okay, I'm really, guys, let's stop for a minute. This is really interesting because Belinda is saying something different and, uh, we need to understand and explain why you're listening. Explain why this is important and say, okay, um, I know I'm putting you on the spot here. I apologize for that. But tell us why. Explain this. Help us to understand. Help me to understand what you mean when you say. And so you're really trying to draw out that person's thought processes and they will have thought this through carefully. They may believe you're not going to understand them because that's probably an experience they get quite often, but you have to make that space for them to be listened to and then invite responses to that. Maybe write it down if you're facilitating on a whiteboard or someone else's. Okay, can we write that down? So you're putting going to it up there. You're making it important. You're not just paying lip service to something somebody has said so that they feel included. You're actually taking it seriously. You personally have to be. Have to. People have to trust that you're taking that seriously. That person will eventually just stop, uh, and become more isolated and, um, more insular and more inclined to say what you're doing. You know, she never listens anyway, so why would I bother?

Belinda Brummer (host): So if you don't make space for it, that's what happened. It's a form of isolation.

Brenda McGurk (Guest): Yeah. And you're losing probably the one dissenting voice on the team that maybe keeps a lot of very positive, insanely optimistic people grounded. You know, I'm married to one of those people, so I've had to learn how to do that in my personal life too.

Belinda Brummer (host): Are you the insanely optimistic person?

Brenda McGurk (Guest): Oh, yes. You know it.

Belinda Brummer (host): How do you come to this moment of wisdom? Where do you know? Because it's easy. The shortest route to getting something done is, is just to get everybody on board or as many people on board and off we go.

Brenda McGurk (Guest): Right.

Belinda Brummer (host): And the train is leaving the station. How do you do this? How did you come to this point to be able to do this?

Brenda McGurk (Guest): I think there are two things. One is that on a personal level, I love quiet people. I'm in awe of them. I'm so. There's a part of me that wishes I could be like that, you know, because they tend to be calm, they tend to be quite wise when they say something, whether you agree with them or not. You know, it's thoughtful and there's a part of me that goes, wow, I wish I could be like that. And so I really respect what those people have to say. And from experience I've learned that sometimes they have stopped me from doing something, just running with an idea and they have made the outcome better. So the second thing is focusing on the go and what needs to get done. It's not always about speed, it's about the quality of that output. So if what that person brings makes us more thoughtful and maybe helps us to do something a little better, you know, you may say, okay, we can't do it in this version, we can't do it in this release. I'm really sorry, but we need to put this down as something we have to do. And you know that that's going to improve a user experience or it's going to make our processes better or it's going to do. So you might not always be able to take it on board right now, but you've just learned something, or they brought something up or they, they've pointed out a risk that nobody wanted to acknowledge because it's going to slow us down. And sometimes we do need to be slowed down because that train may be leaving the station, but, you know, that person might be saying, ah, uh, the signal box is broken. And we're all kind of like, oh, we'll deal with it when we get there. But we've all learned from experience that dealing with it when you get there towards the end of the project is the worst thing you can do, hoping somehow it's going to magically go away. So, yeah, so two things. At a personal level, I just love those people. I think they're amazing, even though they're maddening sometimes, as I am to them. Um, and then on the other level, the second point being that they will sometimes stop everybody from running into a very big problem.

Belinda Brummer (host): Do you have an example of where that's happened, where somebody has with some moment stopped?

Brenda McGurk (Guest): It kind of happens a lot, you know, where somebody will say, if you do that, it's going to add latency. Or if we do that, we can't actually launch it because of this thing over here. So it happens a lot in software development where somebody is maybe a systems architect and, uh, the other people are front end developers, and so they're not necessarily thinking about each other's role, but they're thinking about what they want to get done. But if that stuff doesn't work together, it's not going to happen even on a personal level, if you're managing teams and you're deciding to do something, and, um, I'm thinking about one individual, be very quiet. And then I'd say, do you have anything, you know, you'd like to say? And she said, I really don't think we should be doing that because, and she would give her reasons and it'd be like, yeah, didn't think about that. So let's figure out how we can pull these two things together and make something better come out of these two sides.

Belinda Brummer (host): It's almost irresponsible of the manager. Yes, to the person as well, but to the project, to what you're trying to achieve, not to give voice to those quieter internalisers, that you call them.

Brenda McGurk (Guest): Absolutely. Because you have to keep reminding yourself you're not the expert. You know, I always have to tell myself, I'm not here to do the job, I'm here to get the job done. I'm not the expert I know a lot of, but I need to people pull together teams of cross functional experts to get something done. And sometimes it's the stupid questions that I ask that uncover, um, problems, well, why can't I do this? And the user needs to do that and why don't we do that? But the process is, and um, it's very easy to overlook the problems and get to a poor quality output and still meet the deadline and have something that really isn't fit for purpose. So you have to remind yourself, these people in your group, whatever their function is, know an awful lot more than you do about what they're doing and respect that knowledge and experience that they have.

Belinda Brummer (host): This episode is brought to you by Boost Learning, where management development is done differently. But wait, what does that even mean, I hear you ask.

Well, very much like this podcast, in Boost Learning, we focus our gaze on the person. We work at an individual level with managers to help them gain a deeper understanding of how they do and could manage in the context in which they are currently working. We offer eight week programs, all delivered online and virtually, that provide just enough content to provoke self-reflection and self-analysis and ultimately to enhance capability. The result is a more confident and capable manager.

Check out www.boostlearning.online to see what programmes are currently available. Now back to the conversation with Brenda.

Belinda Brummer (host): Something that you said, sat with me for a bit, and that is that you, um, are delighted not to be managing people right now, right? To have moved away. There is a freedom in it for you because you've managed people for your entire career.

Brenda McGurk (Guest): Yes.

Belinda Brummer (host): It sounds to me what you put into even just one meeting in terms of managing all the voices in that meeting, and you do this all the time, and you've done this for decades. It sounds exhausting. It sounds like it takes a lot of you. And from you, how do you keep showing up with that wonderful focus on opportunity and that positive mindset that you have?

Brenda McGurk (Guest): I think I'm a problem solver, and I get a high out of, we solved a problem. We got to a conclusion, you know, no matter how painful it might be to get there and how exhausting it might be, and you'll have individuals that you do find drain your energy, the emotion vacuums or the dementors in the group that are going to suck the life out of you. Um, but the fact is that I actually really like it. I had an instance a few weeks ago where somebody had said to me, I just can't get to the bottom of this. I'm losing my mind. And I said, do you want me to join the meeting? And the person said, can you? And I said, of course I can. I said, no, I'll sit and be quiet. Which, of course didn't happen. Um, you know, it started a really healthy debate, and we can't shy away from debate and discord. Debate and discord are good. They're healthy things. We don't all have to be singing the same tune all the time. An orchestra is made up of many instruments, but they do need to learn how to play together. But that doesn't mean they do that all day, every day. There are moments where you come together and you put on the performance and you leave. But what you do in your spare time or how you get there, you'll choose your own way. So it's okay for there to be discord. And sometimes I have to sit back and let kind of time it go. Okay, we've an hour for this session by 20 to the hour. With 20 minutes left, I'm going to start turning this into solutions. I'm going to let everyone get everything out of their systems, say what they have to say. The ones who are being quiet, I'm going to make sure they've come in and they've gotten it off their chest. And you don't take it personally. You can't, you know, I've had people say, well, you to me. And I'm like, fair enough. If there's something I need to take out of that, I will, but if there isn't, I'll, uh, put it aside. That person is angry right now. I wouldn't let somebody be abusive in those situations. But you know, sometimes you just, it's literally about ensuring people believe their voice has been heard and sometimes saying, listen, Belinda, I love your idea and I see where it's coming from and it's great. I heard it and I repeat back to them what that idea is, but we're not going to be able to fit it in right now. I'm sorry, but that's just how it is. So being really honest with people and not kind of pretending you're going to do something for them, you know, and then because they'll just stop giving those suggestions and coming up with ideas and.

Belinda Brummer (host): Being innovative and further isolate themselves. And in the end we circle back to that notion of self-sabotage, um, in isolating themselves. But it starts with the manager in this instance with not managing that situation properly or those voices properly.

Brenda McGurk (Guest): Yeah, exactly. And I do actually, if I've gotten to the end of a meeting, no matter how difficult it's been, if we get to the end of it and I can say, okay, so here's what's happening. I'm going to play back to you what I've heard and what we're going to do next. Belinda, you suggested this. Brenda, you suggested that. Kate, you suggested that. John, you suggested that. And calling people out and saying, you know, acknowledging that what we've decided, those people contributed to that, you know, or even if you're in another meeting and, you know, somebody said, oh wow, that was an amazing report. Actually, Belinda wasn't mentioned but she actually gave me a huge amount of help on that report. Have to be sure people are acknowledged with what they do because a lot of times behind there are people behind the scenes. We were doing some work last year on a funded project and people were, um, somebody had said in the meeting, oh, that's amazing. You got that done. We've hit the deadline. And I said, well, you know, there were two people without whom we couldn't have had it done and these are people who work in the accounts team. Nobody saw the painful, horrible work they had to do and it was horrendous work and it's way below their pay grade. They didn't have to do it, but they did it. And I want to say a personal thank you to them. Like you have to acknowledge people, especially if they've gone above, uh and beyond. That's all any of us want, is it? You know, thank you. We appreciate what you've done.

Belinda Brummer (host): What I'm taking from this conversation, there's a lot. Right. But just to kind of summarize some of the points, and that is that it's clear to me, as I listen to how you. How you show up, that it is driven by the things that interest you and that you are passionate about, that you like to fix problems, that you like quiet people, and that through you being self aware and knowing how you show up in moments, you're able to live those interests and passions in a positive way, that you're able to, for example, give space to the quiet person in the room because you're aware of how you tend to show up in the room. Um, and because you love the quiet person, you give that space when otherwise you might not. Um, another thing that you've said is that's really struck me is a lot of what you've spoken about is allowing people to choose how they're going to show up in that moment, and that that is your job, um, to a large extent. So we talked about this wonderful metaphor of the orchestra. You know, you have all these instruments can play in lots of different ways. Um, but when we come together in an orchestra, instruments play in a certain way, and it's the choice to be in that moment, in that performance, in that way, and that the manager is about allowing people to choose to be there and then helping them to show up in a way that builds them and that everybody else benefits from, including the project or the problem or the goal or whatever it is that's there. And it starts with the manager in terms of how the manager chooses to show up themselves.

Brenda McGurk (Guest): Mmm and also making it clear, if you're having a meeting, what's that objective? You and I have always talked about that. If you don't have a meeting, objective, don't have the meeting, what are we here for? We're here to get to. We're here because we have this problem we have to solve. Um, we're here because we can decide how to do this. We're here because we don't understand what's needed for that. We're here because I didn't make it clear what the user needs are. People should come into that meeting knowing why they're there, and then they'll know, oh, this is a meeting where I can let off steam, or, oh, this is a really serious thing. And we have to have, you know, and I will stop those meetings, you know, 20 minutes to the hour, and say, okay, I hope everyone feels they, they've had a chance to. If you didn't, this is your last chance. Three, two, one. Okay, now we're moving in two. And you just make it really clear. And if somebody is pulling it back, you know, say, Belinda, I hear you. But right now, unless you think this is going to be fatal to what we're doing right now, we're moving into this part. And you know, I'm not perfect. I've had times where I've completely just gotten so frustrated with people that I have not been a pleasant person. And if that happens, I apologize. And I make sure everybody knows that I've apologized because it's not if I don't find that acceptable from someone else that it's not acceptable from me. You know, whatever the reasons, whatever somebody may have driven, uh, you absolutely round the bend to a point where you're so exasperated, you go, okay, you know what? There's no point continuing with this. And sometimes you have to be that person. But it's okay then to say, um, I'm m glad I stopped the meeting. However, the way I did it, I'm not happy with how I did that. And if that was offensive, I apologize. I truly apologize if I've offended anybody in the way I present myself. I wasn't happy with how I did that. That was a lower standard for me.

Belinda Brummer (host): You know, it strikes me how few people, not just managers, but how few people do that, but especially managers. And I have encountered people who have, who have held the very firm view that as a manager or as a leader, I can't apologize because it weakens my authority in the team. Yes. Um, they may acknowledge for themselves that they behaved in a certain way, but actually they link that with losing authority in the team and so they don't apologize.

Brenda McGurk (Guest): It's not about you. That's the thing. It's not about me. It's not about me getting my way. It's about what's best for the team, the business and, um, the outcome that we need to do. And maybe it's what's best for our end users. In this case, where I work now, some child sitting taking an assessment in the school, if that's not serious enough, I don't know what is. We do work that at the end of the day has a very serious impact on children, for example. So I take that really seriously. But it doesn't, excuse me, behaving poorly. That's, that's not on because you're telling people that's okay. You're telling people it's okay.

Belinda Brummer (host): You're leading by example, aren't you?

Brenda McGurk (Guest): Yeah.

Belinda Brummer (host): Even in that moment you're leading by example.

Brenda McGurk (Guest): If you shout at your kids, you can expect them to shout back at you. If you shout at people you work with and they shout back at you, you know, what can you say? Like, it's not acceptable?

Belinda Brummer (host): So we're coming to the end of our conversation, Brenda. Uh, well, this one, not our lifetime conversation. Right. When you look back in years to come and you reflect on your professional journey, the impact you've had, the things that you've done. What do you want to be known for a bit?

Brenda McGurk (Guest): Hope that even in the direst of circumstances, people felt valued and could have fun. That there was an element of this isn't just drudgery. It isn't just, you know, in the hamster wheel to get the job done, that, uh, they had space to be themselves and be creative and have a laugh and express their personalities and be silly and goof off and make mistakes. I would always want to create a forgiving environment, an inclusive, forgiving. And these are all corny words, but I really genuinely mean it. Like, I rock into work and, um, when I'm hiring somebody, I'm going, can I deal with this person five days a week? You know, and it's not about me, but it's about how is that going to work in the environment that we want to have? If I'm spending minimum of 8 hours a day doing something, it better be worthwhile to me as a human being. Now, not everybody wants that. Some people want to show up to the work and leave, that's fine. But making the space for people to have a bit of fun, have a laugh like each other, get along, feel, um, valued, you know, to look back and say, you know what? That was a really special place we worked, and that place being the team, not the building.

Belinda Brummer (host): We come to the end of another episode of the managers move. Thank you for listening.

If you've enjoyed it, there are three things you could do. Let your friends and colleagues know about it. Follow the show. Be a part of the conversation connections by joining the managers moment club on LinkedIn. The Manager's Moment, seeing the person in this and every moment. Oh, uh, and a shout out to Boost Learning where management development is done differently. To find out more, go to www.boostlearning.online.

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