Episode 7 Part 2

Standing out from the crowd comes with its own burdens and insights, especially when the weight of expectations meets perceptions of what is possible.

This is the second of a two-part episode, with Michael - Mick - Arkins. We pick up our conversation just as he was encouraging his L&D peers to do better and it is no surprise that he ends this second part of our conversation with a similar call to his HR peers.

In between these nudges, Mick shares how mental health challenges in the family, a succession of great managers and being from the inner city (of Dublin) shaped the person and the professional he continues to become.

About Mick

Mick has over 15 years of experience in International HR within a diverse range of industry experience within SaaS and B2C eCommerce environments. He has held senior HR roles in MindLeaders ThirdForce, Fleetmatics, Verizon Connect and currently heads up HR EMEA for Shein. 

He gets genuinely excited about healthy HR metrics and dashboard management, and describes himself as someone who leads by example and is also a project manager, culture influencer, and authentic team leader. Doing work that matters is what he loves!

Intro song: Break the chains, rise above. Face the fire with strength and love in this battle.

Mick Arkins (Guest): Uh, you know, even at our lowest low, at no point did the family unit fall apart. Don't stay in the lane you're in. If there's an opportunity to try something else, try to something else. Let's just be real about how we work and move forward together.

Belinda Brummer (host): Welcome to The Manager's Moment. I am your host, Belinda Brummer. This is the second part of a two part episode. My guest is Michael, or rather Mick Arkins, who is currently the head of HR for EMEA in a company called Shein. In part one, Mick talked about developing tolerance for stress and concerning himself with the experience people have of life and of the workplace. He also spoke of seeking out discomfort as a way to grow and reconciling the way he likes to work, with the reality of how he needs to work in his current Chinese centric context. In part two, we pick up the conversation just as he was encouraging his L&D peers to do better. And it is no surprise that he ends the second part of our conversation with a similar call to his HR peers. In between these nudges, Mick shares how mental health challenges in the family, a succession of great managers, and being from the inner city, shaped the person and professional he has and continues to become.

Mick Arkins (Guest): I've had a lot of great L&D colleagues. I've met a great load of great trainers. But I honestly, I guess from a pure HR perspective, when I think about one of the big engagement drivers for people, regardless of who you are, regardless of how well you perform, right? But one of the big engagement drivers is development. It's about the brain, it's about the mind, it's about simulation on the job, right? And I just don't think, you know, we do enough to engage that part of the person. I think a lot of companies do a great job when it comes to the pocket. I think they do a great job when it comes to the heart. You know, you can have a sense of belonging, you can be in a great community, but it's the mind, and that's the theme for me. Right. We expect you to come into an environment that may have a lot of informal learning going on. And by the way, that's brilliant, too. But the theme for me is just we're not doing the right things when it comes to engaging people from a career progression standpoint and helping people level up. I think there's, uh, a, uh, natural resistance to that, because if I make you better, you could be better for someone else. So there's a little bit of that going on. I see a lot of good people leave good companies and it's purely because they want to do something different and that difference could have been given to them where they were. There just isn't a lot of sophisticated um, mechanisms to accommodate that in many places that I've looked at. When you think about it, there's a phenomenal industry out there for training and l and D and all the rest of it. There's still that little bit of a disconnect between the internal ins and outs and what the external offerings can be and I think that's the next kind of frontier I believe for the profession.

Belinda Brummer (host): So then there's not enough of an appetite, is it, to develop people? Even though there is a lot you could do, there's just not being done. What's going on there.

Mick Arkins (Guest): The first thing I think we need to accept is that this stuff is difficult, right. It's not something that you can just do with access to a uh, a fancy LMS with a tonne of content. When you’re talking about capability development, competence development, I mean you got to get down into it, you got to look at a uh layered approach to it and I think a lot of companies just don’t have the stamina for that. I think they don’t have the energy for it. I think a lot of companies are very comfortable with saying we’ve got a great L and D strategy and here’s what that looks like. Boom, boom, boom. Right. But I think at the end of it all it's hard to really quantify if the impact is there or not. I think a lot of it goes down to that. It's difficult. I think a lot of it is down to if we pay for this, if we commit to this, what is the ROI? Do I get better productivity? Do I get a better professional? Do I get what do I get? What's in it for me? And I think some organisations struggle with that. They struggle with if I create a more competent, capable person what does it look like? Um, I find that interesting because that's hard for a lot of people. I think it fundamentally comes down to management capability. And um, what I mean by that is you can have a sophisticated uh, learning and development engine, you can have an amazing HR strategy when it comes to L and D. But for me it's about activating at that management layer. And um, in my experience the best inspiration, the best coaching, the best direction comes from your manager and I think they're the people that need to level up. They're the people that need to think about how they inspire. They're the people that need to think about coaching around competence, being that role model. I think we need to activate that group a little bit better. And I guess for me, in my own development, that's where my source of inspiration came from. You know, when I'm, when I'm engaging with my manager on a variety of things, I think I've been very lucky because I've, I've only ever had very good, experienced, competent leadership that I've always reported into. And I take different things from all of those people, but I can't say that about everyone else. I know. You know, and even in my own observations in my career to date, I see a lot of people who I would say are very good people, have the right ingredients in place to be unbelievable at what they do, but they don't have that dynamic with their manager. And, um, for me, it sounds like, uh, almost sounds reductive. What I'm saying is management capability. But for me, that's what needs to be targeted. That needs to be targeted because that's where you get the most success, that's where you get the most growth, the most impact. Good management, engaged management, caring management, all of that is wrapped up in that. But I also would say that one of the things that I've always pushed in myself is to seek discomfort and actively look for it. You know what I mean? I think no matter what setting you're in, personally or professionally, if it's making you feel out of sorts, do it because it's phenomenal. What can happen when you do that? Jump into those things if you don't know what you're doing? Try cheque in with your network, Google. Right. You know, we've all been there. But try and be uncomfortable because the more you do that, the more confidence you grow in yourself and remind yourself, you know, you don't know it all and you'll never know it all. So I've always had this kind of gravitational pull towards things that I may not be crazy about, but let's do it anyway, right? Because that's interesting and, um, let's see how that goes. Don't stay in the lane you're in. If there's an opportunity to try something else, try to something else because it helps. So from a pure competence standpoint, the pure. What does this business do? What do I do in this business? This is all crazy. Put yourself out there, absorb whatever you can, wherever you can, and, um, don't be linear and fixed in how you see your role and the company you're in.

Belinda Brummer (host): On your own journey you have borrowed a lot from others in terms of how they do things until you figured out how you do things yourself. Which really begs the question, how did Mick become the professional that he became? And I wonder if you could maybe just take us on a journey of either where did you start? When you think about your development journey and what were some of the things that happened or some of the things you paid attention to along the way? And what did it take for you to become the professional that you are? The good, bad and the indifferent, maybe?

Mick Arkins (Guest): Yeah, I guess for me, um, there's the personal side to it, and then there's the professional side to it. You know, you go into a job, you be a way, you act a way. And I guess what it comes down to, like, if I really kind of dig deep, it's interesting, right? Because, you know, I'll get feedback or I'll hear somebody comment on my leadership style. And sometimes that can kind of comes across a bit foreign to me. I'm like, but am I really like that? You know what I mean? Like, so, you know, there's a little bit of imposter syndrome where it's like, you know, am I really, do I convey myself the way, um, this person is describing me? Um, and that, that's always interesting to me. So, you know, I kind of think back to growing up. Um, you know, I openly kind of shared a story with people, but I had my dad had, ah, bipolar disorder. So ever since I was a young kid going up into being a teenager, we would witness the ups and the downs. You know, you had the manic depression, you had the mania. Um, and it was interesting because I find myself, my brother and my sister, we're all a little bit more understanding. We're all a little bit more tuned in to how people are, we’re a little bit more, um, I guess, empathetic, you know what I mean? Like, it. It does something to you when you're growing up that, you know, when you're dealing with this and you're witnessing this and all the various swings that's related to that. I genuinely do feel like a lot of who I am today is because of that. I can be in a room, I can be in a situation, I can be talking to 20 different people, all very different. And you will get the same me, if that makes sense. Like, I. I get the weirdness and the, you know, not everybody is going to be what you want them to be, and that's okay. And you gotta be, you know, you gotta be agile when it comes to that. So I think I take a lot of that, you know, a lot of that. You know, on the flip side of it as well, like, I think there's a lot of credit I would give to my mom, right, because she was a role model in all of that where, you know, when I look at the family unit, she was the kind of, what's the word I'm looking for? Like, she was the solid force, she was the stability. I guess as siblings, when we were growing up, you know, we were kind of witnessing that. You know, at no point did, you know, even at our lowest low, at no point did the family unit fall apart. Everything was kept together, and I think that did something to all of us. So I think when I go into the workplace, I kind of went in with a broader mind, a more mature kind of understanding as to how people are. And, um, yeah, a little bit more tuned in and receptive to the diversity you get in people, um, in terms of how they behave and what's important to them. And I've worked with a lot of people that objectively I do not like. That's the truth, right. But it doesn't impact the work. And I think that helped me, I think my past helped me. You know, I can, I can go into those conversations, I can be very self aware and, yeah, and just be productive, do what I need to do to move things forward, um, and not allow it to, you know, upset me. Where I've seen other people struggle with that, I see a lot of people struggle with that and they do it kind of unconsciously, you know, and they don't realise there's a lot of, like, bias or diminished influence because for whatever reason, they just don't like you or they don't like this person. Right. And, um, that all plays out in the world of work. So I don't know, like, you know, I think that's definitely the foundation and I think it's definitely a big part of the character m that makes m me professionally.

Belinda Brummer (host): How does that inform how you then manage? Because I think it's quite clear in the way that you've described… I can imagine how your experience plays out in relation to how you then show up in those moments when there is difference in the room, but you, uh, are a manager who is now potentially having to manage other people and how they show up when there is difference in the room that they are in. How do you help others or shape others in this regard.

Mick Arkins (Guest): The first thing I kind of think about is it's not just about the work. You know, my job as a manager is to ensure that what needs to happen is happening in the way it needs to happen by the time it needs to happen. But I think, um, you know, when I walk into the office, you know, I need to understand that everybody in that room that sits around me, they've got other things going on. Yes. The objective is to do what we need to do based on the job we're in. But I think more people could connect better. And, um, you know, I do think a lot of people put on a face or a Persona when they go into the world of work. And I kind of sometimes, and very intentionally, I try to deconstruct that, um, or disarm that because I don't think that's where real impact is. So for me, it's kind of leading by example. You know, it's showing people that you care about what's going on, it's being vulnerable where you let them know very clearly, I haven't a clue about that. Do you? Or. Let's go see m if we can find someone who does, you know, being a manager, being a leader doesn't mean being the one in the room that knows, knows it all, you know, so it's shown them that, you know, you can be vulnerable, you can be open, you can be honest, because it encourages them to do the same, you know what I mean? And, uh, that's what you need to do. You kind of need to deconstruct that. And I do it with everyone I talk to. You know, when I'm introduced to somebody new, you know, maybe you use humour, maybe you kind of, you say something very honest. I mean, the other day, I'll give you an example, um, I went into a call with one of my manager's direct reports and I was helping him understand a platform that we're using for work management. And, um, when I went into the call, I got the impression that he was a bit nervous because I was in the call and the only reason I was there is because I have a little bit more knowledge about this platform than anyone else. Right. But I could tell that he thought that was always a big deal, right. I'm spending an hour talking him through a platform so he can do a couple of things in one of our many different cities. And I could tell he was a bit on edge, a bit nervous and whatnot. So we kind of opened up the conversation in a way where I was saying to him, you know, I get what's going on in the city you're in. And I kind of made a few comments, uh, about how imperfect we are. And my intent was very deliberate because I wanted him to understand that I'm not lost. I know exactly what your day is. I know how ridiculous it is. I know how bad things are in your world. And just by him seeing that, I was tuned in to the issues that he's having. That whole conversation turned around within 1015 minutes. And it was almost like I gave him indirect permission to speak his truth in the call. And, uh, I just found it interesting, right? Because I'm like, these are shared experiences. We don't need to pretend or we don't need to put a face on. You know, let's just be real about how we work, um, um, and move forward together. And I think that says something. You know what I mean? I think people appreciate that because not a lot of people do it. Not a lot of people do it. And, um, you know, it's, it's, if you cannot connect with people at that deeper level, it's going to be very hard to do anything that will make a real difference. It's going to, you know, people are not going to be comfortable in themselves. They're not going to be authentic in how they act because we're sustaining this kind of role play that I think a lot of people bring when they go into work.

Belinda Brummer (host): And why do you think that is? Why do people ... because you see it all the time… you and I have seen it play out so many, so much in the workspace. What do you think is happening there when people take on these roles and they do this role playing?

Mick Arkins (Guest): So it's interesting. I think the conversation with deviate right into, you know, maybe it's a generational thing because I've definitely observed differences in younger people because they're a little bit more willing to, to kind of fail openly. They're a little bit more willing to kind of, um, you know, say what they don't know and they're less inclined to kind of play that, you know, I need to be this type of way because that's what being insertitle is. And, um, what do I think it is? I think it's fear. I think a lot of people, you can know what you know, you know, and even when you're doing something for, say, 20 years, you look at your cv, you kind of take a step back. Or maybe it's just me, but I look at my cv and I'm like, did I do all that? Like, is that who I am? You know, it's kind of strange because, you know, your whole career is like a collection of all these different things you've done and interactions you've had and, you know, people say, like, but get deep into that. What, what are you? I don't know. I switch on my laptop. I do what I need to do and I think I do it well. But beyond that, you know, you're always going to be confronted with situations that may be new, may require you to adapt. Um, I think a lot of people go into the world of work with their cv being their, their identity. I said, I'm this, so I need to be that. But what does that mean? So I think a lot of people come in and they, you know, fear gets in the way because it's, it's an unknown environment. You know, there's always different ways of doing whatever it is you do. You've got cultural consideration. So I think a lot of us go in and, um, in a situation where you cannot control everything going on around you and all the newness of it, you can control how you project yourself. So I think a lot of people go in with an idea of who they are and that's what they project. And, um, it sounds absolutely mad to say, but I think sometimes if you really want to get the best from people, you got to start deconstructing that and, um, start getting to the core who they are, what actually motivates you, what do you want to be and how do we get to that place? Because only then I think you'll get the best from people in terms of, you know, the contribution they make and whatnot.

Belinda Brummer (host): Mhm. One of the other things that you said in the conversation, um, when you were introducing where you are from and you said in the, you're from the inner city in Dublin, do you think that plays into, you know, your development journey? Is that a significant part? Because it was, it was certainly important enough for you to kind of say that you're from the inner city. Does that contribute to who you are here now?

Mick Arkins (Guest): I think it does. Like, I'm not gonna lie. I think many years ago when I went into the world of work, like, I distinctly remember when I was studying my degree and not feeling like I belonged. And that's a weird thing to say, right? Because you do get a little bit of imposter syndrome. So, like, I was the first person in my family to go into formal education. There was a little bit of this kind of pressurised situation where my family, an extended family, they're calling you. He's the brains of the family. You know, there was a lot of that going on, and deep down, I'm like, I haven't a clue. I don't even know if I chose the right degree. Like, I don't. You know what I mean? Like, you're trying to put a face on because, you know, they're, they're proud, they're encouraging. So you kind of, you know, you give them what they want. But, you know, underneath all of that, you know, you're having a meltdown because you don't even know what you're doing yourself. So you're kind of on this roller coaster of just let me do what I need to do to get by. And I remember sitting in the classroom, and a lot of people around me, you know, they were from more affluent backgrounds, you know, and it just. I don't know. Like, it's, uh, you know, I guess you could really get deep into that. You know what I mean? I grew up in an environment where college degree, I mean, they're not the type of things you do. You know, you typically go into a trade or you don't work at all. So imagine you're surrounded by a lot of things, and this is not just within the community. This is within the family. You're surrounded by a lot of things from, like, unemployment, drug addiction. You know, it's. It's kind of like a world within a world. Um, and I would even say, like, you know, in the nineties and early two thousands, I mean, that was a very, very different place against what it is today. So I think it was interesting. Like, it took me a long time to get used to the fact that I was sitting in a classroom studying a degree, and I'm feeling that pressure of, do I belong here? Do I have to prove to people I belong here? Um, and I've even had people comment, like, I remember being in set, like, you know, like, when I was in secondary school, I maintained a relationship with some of the teachers or a connection with some of the teachers. And, like, they would very explicitly say, like, fair play to you, you know, from the area you're in. And, you know, what? Um, I read from that at the time is, like, so you didn't even believe that this was possible, you know, like, there's people out there that are already kind of writing off a whole population of young people because of their background or socioeconomic background. So they're thinking, like, you know, this is as good as it gets. You know, you'd be lucky to leave here relieving cert. So I found that interesting after the fact because there was almost a little bit of, um, surprise. Like, my god, you got a degree? Wow, you. You know, so I found that interesting. Cause, like, academically, I wasn't, like, the strongest in the class. I mean, I was mid tier, you know what I mean? Like, I wasn't, like, super smart or anything, you know, but I did what I did and, um, left with a degree. And then I think when I went into the world of work, I definitely do think my background kind of, uh, what's the word I'm looking for? Like, if anything, it gave me a bit of a distinction, you know what I mean? Like, I just felt like I stood out a little bit differently. And it took me a while to embrace that in a way that, you know, I seen it as a strength, because it is. And I think we walk into that world, and I guess from day one, I was always a little bit more willing to give more of myself than I saw other people. I grew up in a world where, you know, you're humbled. Don't even try. Put a face on. Um. Don't even try be something you're not, because you'll be very quickly told exactly where you. Where you are. You know what I mean? So I guess I went in with more comfort in terms of saying, look, this is who I am. This is what I'm about, you know? And that's that. I, um, don't think a lot of people have that. I think a lot of us out there are basically conditioned from a very young age to, you know, be straight laced, focused, go, go, go. You know, never deviate. Don't share too much about yourself. I even disagree when I hear people say things like, you know, your colleagues are not your friends. I mean, stop. Come on. We're human beings, right? We spend 40 hours, 50 hours a week together like they are your friends. You know, you can. You can define friendship in many different ways, but let's not create this sterile environment where we're all there to do a job, and that's it, you know? So I think my background does, in a very big way, play a big part into who I am, I guess, professionally.

Belinda Brummer (host): How did you then develop into the senior professional that you are now? What were some of the things that you paid attention to? Or did you. Was it intentional? Was it unintentional?

Mick Arkins (Guest): So this is always an interesting one for me because, you know, sometimes I think, you know, if you said to me a couple of years ago, did you have like a vision board for your career? I'd be like, nope. I kind of just go with the flow. I, I feel like when I come to work, I do what I say I will do and, you know, I have a way of working that I think is, um, um, it's appreciated by the people that have, I guess, control over my career direction. A lot of it comes down to connection. Like, there's a lot of value in being able to connect with people personally. Um, and I do think, you know, your social profile, your reputation speaks for itself. It all comes down to kindness, it all comes down to care. I mean, if you show people that, you know, you give a shit, it is so powerful in any context and it doesn't matter who, you know what I mean? That's not a specific audience of people. I think, you know, being consistent with how you engage people and, um, being consistent with your communication, it eventually accumulates into this kind of big ball of reputation and profile. And, um, with that you can do many things. Like, I've been in situations where I've been able to influence things that were far beyond my remit, all, uh, because of personal connections with people. And I think that's where the power sits within any kind of social construct. It's been, you know, when people look at you and say, I trust him, I like him, I like talking to him, he shows me he knows what is what. And, um, there's no delusion there. It's a very real conversation. I think that that kind of goes somewhere for people.

Belinda Brummer (host): I just want to say that this, this feels very different from that old boys network.

Mick Arkins (Guest): Oh, yeah, 100%.

Belinda Brummer (host): Just that, that sense of, oh, I, you know, I'm able to influence because of the people that I know.

Mick Arkins (Guest): Yeah.

Belinda Brummer (host): The very next word out of your mouth is trust.

Mick Arkins (Guest): Trust, yeah.

Belinda Brummer (host): So this is not an old boys network.

Mick Arkins (Guest): No. And I can tell you for a fact, like in every. I guess I've been lucky enough to work in a lot of organisations where the people around me are not, you know, call it industry, call it whatever, but, uh, I've never been in a situation where I felt like, I guess the direction or the dynamic was dictated based on that type of connection. You know, like, uh, you know, we're all in this together because we all know one another. I've never really been in that, to be honest. Like, I don't think I'd be comfortable, you know, I'd probably be very vocal in that type of situation and, um, disruptive. But I've always been in a situation where people have been receptive. One of the interesting things. But I've never had an Irish manager and I always see that as a bit of a strength as well because I'm like, you're South African, I've had Australian, I've had American, I've had German and now I have Chinese. I'm, um, mostly female managers as well, which is interesting. So I've always had a very diverse set of perspectives in how we do what we do from a career direction standpoint. It's literally just about having impact, have an influence and shown that you actually do genuinely, deeply care about better. And it matters. And I'm not just here to do a job description. I am here to make the world better within this environment, make people feel better in whatever way I can and shown that you can do what you need to do, you know, and you can give a very kind of, um, corporate response to that, you know, strategic alignment and getting the objective, you know, but at the end of the day it goes beyond that. But I think people recognise that, you know, it's genuine and I think a lot of companies want that because you're breaking the mould.

Belinda Brummer (host): So I want to move on to something that you said around moving. You seek out discomfort.

Mick Arkins (Guest): Yeah.

Belinda Brummer (host): What do you mean by that? And can you give me an example of something that, you know, what have you sought out that is uncomfortable or pursued something that is uncomfortable? And why would you do that?

Mick Arkins (Guest): There's a link here. So when we talked about trailblazers and you said to me, does that kind of contribute to your character? And I think I said, absolutely. It's a big part of who I am. Nothing, um, about that experience was comfortable at all. At all. There was probably a moment or two, but for the most part, I mean, objectively, I kind of disliked all of it, but I kept going back and it's just because I felt real change inside myself, you know, I just felt my worldview was changing. I felt that I was a lot more resilient, you know, stress didn't really faze me. I was good at, uh, maintaining composure when there was complete conflict all around me. And I just felt deep down that the more of that I get, the more exposure to that I get, the better I will be at the end of it all. Um, and it played out for me. I feel like it did that. So I think of the world of work, I kind of apply the same, you know, there's two things that stand out to me that serve as a big example. I remember when I spoke about the acquisition of Fleetmatics by Verizon, I had my world very well defined. We had our culture, we were amazing. We had a very high Emps or employee sentiment and satisfaction. And everything just worked and clicked. And all of a sudden, everything got upended. And I remember at the time thinking to myself, I need to leave. This is it didn't sign up for this. Let me go try something else. And, uh, I remember at the time thinking, there's going to be a major culture shift. This is going to be very disruptive. Um, I'm going to almost have to be, uh, like a custodian of culture for fleet Maddox and make sure that the best parts of us are protected and preserved. Over the course of about six months to a year, all of that started to play out. But in the midst of all that, I was also asked to extend my remit into two other businesses with their own unique identities. So not only are we going through a massive change situation, but now we've got three different cultures, all of which have their own unique value, being blended into one whilst being assimilated into another. So I was, where do we even begin? Right. Conflicting. Well, not conflicting, but different values, different ways of being. I mean, you're a tech company, you're a telco company. How do we do this dance in a way that protects the business and protects how we do culture? Because I would argue that managing an organisation that's primarily composed of tech people versus a more traditional industry, um, at this point in telco, they're different things. They're day and night. And I found it interesting and very uncomfortable because I was like, I don't even know where to begin here.

Belinda Brummer (host): What do you mean by different?

Mick Arkins (Guest): In the world of tech, like, there was a much more agile mindset, there was a much more flexible way of working. There was what I would say, um, like continuous evolution around the employee experience and what that meant. And you kind of adapted and audited your way of working very regular. Like, almost in real time. Like, you know, all it took was a case to kind of rethink or reshape in your mind that actually, maybe we need to look at that, maybe we need to kind of redo that, because that's not gonna. Gonna work for us. Right. Where I found on the other side, it was much more rigid. Yeah, this is the rule. That's it. Right. So that, that's how I would describe it. So. So that was uncomfortable for me because I felt like I needed to kind of, you know, I almost felt like I had an emotional attachment at the time to. To the fleet Maddox way of doing things, because it's. It's what made us so success successful. I don't know. Like, I felt extremely uncomfortable because bit by bit, you were seeing some of that culture get assimilated or integrated. And, um, um, don't get me wrong, that that was not a bad, objectively a bad thing. It was a different thing, you know, and I had feelings about it. I mean, there were many strengths and, um, benefits that came with that, but there were also a couple of losses, you know, and it's just the nature of how these things are. That was really uncomfortable for me. And at the time, I decided, like, I'm gonna stick around. I'm gonna see this true. I want to see the reimagining a Verizon Connect. I want to see what that looks like. I want to see how you bring three very distinct cultures together across 27 different countries, and I want to see how that all plays out in one of the biggest companies in the world. You know, this is the type of experience you don't get so uncomfortable. You know, there was a little bit of fallout. You know, we lost people. We lost certain things that we did that I would say were pillars to the culture itself. I mean, one of them was a big developers conference we did every year. It was the highlight of the year. Um, that went away, and we started to see kind of just, we were becoming more horizonized. Um, and like I said, lots of good came with that. Lots of things were lost as well along the way. So that wasn't the most comfortable time to kind of navigate that and be the. The spokesperson or advocate for Verizon connect at that corporate level.

Belinda Brummer (host): Um, at the time, in that situation, being uncomfortable sounds like it was motivated a little bit. Well, uh, by a lot of other things, but in the way that you've described here, a little bit of curiosity, right? 100%, just about how this was going to play out. And curiosity, how is that something that is a feature in your life at all?

Mick Arkins (Guest): I think it is. I think it's a big part of it. I think, for me, it's where growth is. You know, like, it's. It's always looking for the new thing or always looking for making sense of a, uh, constantly more complex world, you know what I mean? So, like, even in my current role, that's the situation. We're going into new regions all the time, and I have no clue where do I even begin? When m it comes to opening up an office in Saudi Arabia? Where do I begin? There's so much that has to be thought about there, and, um, you know, there's a side of me that thinks, oh, my god, the last thing I want to be doing right now is add another complexity to a situation that's already pretty complicated to. I'm actually keen to see what that's all about. That's interesting. Um, work in Riyadh and so on. So, yeah, so I think curiosity is where you grow, you know, and I like what comes with that, because you can gain many things by sticking around and seeing how you can play a part in all of that change. That, that comes so absolutely curiosity, but it comes with a little bit of conflict as well, because I remember at the time, you know, my, I'm probably using the wrong words here, right? But my allegiance was to the senior leadership team that I was part of during all of this change. And, um, what was difficult for me was I knew what they knew to be important. So I felt added pressure to be the voice whenever I could get the chance to be the voice. But the resistance there is that you've got a new layer of people who, I guess, objectively, I need to also start working with and building relationships with, and, you know, it's navigating both sides of the house, and I found that interesting. So as curious as all the change was, you know, there were a lot of people in there that didn't really want that. You know, nobody really knows what happens, you know, when you sell a company, who knows what happens next? I mean, that's part of the process. Right? But you'd be lying if you said that everybody, day two was like, all right, tell us how you want us to be and, um, where you want us. That's not the case. I mean, these businesses still have their own identity and their own kind of, you know, and a lot of people kind of want to hold on to that. So it became very difficult. Like, I remember at one point thinking, is this going to diminish the influence and the profile capital that m I grew over the last six years? Is this going to diminish that with some of these key people? Because now I'm obligated, objectively, as the head of HR for the international remit to make sure that this process goes as smoothly as possible. I mean, that's objectively the mo. So, uh, how do I do that now? In a way where up until this point, my loyalty and everything I did was for this leadership team and how do I get them on board with.

Belinda Brummer (host): This and how did you, I don't.

Mick Arkins (Guest): Know if I did right. Like it. Like, it's hard to know if you did or you didn't. All you can really do is educate as regular as you can. M why some of these things make sense, why integrating some functions makes sense, why we will benefit from it. M but also going back to what we said before, you got to be honest about some of this stuff as well. You know, I sat in rooms where I said, look, I'm gonna be honest with you. I, uh, don't know if this is the right thing to be doing, but we gotta do it anyways. This is the way it needs to be. We got to kind of do it and maybe rebuild what we can when we can. But I'd be lying if I sat down and told you that I agree with this or this makes sense to me, but I'm assuming someone smarter than me, someone with more information than me, knows the plan. And right now I'm just going to execute on that plan and do the job I'm here to do. And I think there was an appreciation in the honesty of that because we were kind of like being completely human about it. None of these things ever go smoothly. There's always emotion, um, there's always a psychology to it. And just sitting down and being able to bend about it shows them that even though we think we're driving down the wrong road, mhm. We gotta keep going. And I think they appreciate that. Versus some sort of BS, makey-up-beat kind of. Because people see through that, you know? So you gotta be honest with people and you gotta just tell them what you really feel.

Belinda Brummer (host): My last question for you, in years to come. Yeah, many years to come. When you look back.

Mick Arkins (Guest): Yeah.

Belinda Brummer (host): What do you want to be known for?

Mick Arkins (Guest): Um. Um. Are we talking professionally or generally or both?

Belinda Brummer (host): Either. Are they separate in your case?

Mick Arkins (Guest): Um, they kind of are. And. Yeah, like, so. So I guess if I start with the personal, I mean, it's, it's very low key. I don't have grand aspirations. I mean, for me, there are various people that I've interacted with in my life, all walks of life, various places that for whatever reason, I, I feel an affinity to those people. Um, some of them I barely see. Some of them I see all the time. There's many of them. So on a personal level, I would like to be, I guess, remembered as someone who offered something deep and meaningful in terms of friendship and connection or has helped them, in a way, themselves, right? So, like, you know, I'd like to be known as the guy who pushed them into a new direction career wise. The guy that helped them get an opportunity in whatever new job has come up or, you know, has motivated them to take a risk and jump into something different. Different. Like, I'd like to be seen as, you know, someone that has contributed to a redirection in life, that has had a profound impact on them, because I feel like that's what it's all about, essentially. That's what it's all about. Every interaction we have should be built in a way whereby, you know, you're pushing people to do better all the time. So I don't know. Like, that's it. Like, I'd get a lot from that. Like, if people says, you know, if it wasn't for you, I wouldn't have done this. You know what I mean? Because that tells me that I'm doing it right. And I'm not just being a passive participant in the friendship or the connection, right? Like, I'm, um, I'm keeping people on their toes and I'm celebrating their successes professionally. I would like to be known as someone who has kind of broke the mould from a HR standpoint, someone who has genuinely focused on competitive distinction within a business context, someone who has left an impact or created something that, you know, within the parameters of my control and the boundaries of my control. I've created something that's lasting. I've done things differently. I get something from that. You know, when people say to me like, oh, you know, I wish. I wish the HR team in this place was more like you or, you know, we need a mic on the HR team. I mean, I love that because it tells me that, you know, I'm. I'm disrupting in a healthy way. I'm challenging in a healthy way. Um, I'm not sitting still looking for ways to really shake the table from a HR perspective and show people that HR is not this singular, linear defined thing. It can be many, many things, and we just need to do collectively as a profession, we just need to do a lot more to kind of redefine ourselves for, um, the next 1020 years. Because we talk about this all the time when we joke about it, but, you know, it can be very boring. You know what I mean? We can go to HR conferences and we can talk all the talk about all the different things HR related. It's boring. It's boring. There's no creativity in it. There's no innovation in it. It's, you know, and I guess part of what we do is that's needed. Right. You need to be rigid, structured compliance, all of it. We get that. But that doesn't mean that you can not step out of your comfort zone and try new things. Um, and that's what I'd like to be remembered for.

Belinda Brummer (host): The guy who made. Yeah. Did it differently and the guy who made HR seek out discomfort. I love it.

Mick Arkins (Guest): Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, just, just because it's essential to our own actual professional longevity. Um, and it can make a real difference in these companies that it's, you know, I cannot stand or I cannot understand, I guess, is a HR person that stays in their lane and doubles down in their lane. You know what I mean? Like, everything we fundamentally do within any business, we're in, everything we do touches everything. We're in a very good kind of, we're in a position of privilege almost. We have insight into everything. So it always kind of phases me when someone is like, oh, finance. No, that's not me. Tax. No, no, no, no. Don't need to know all the ins and outs when it comes to engineering or the tech stack or. No, you do. You do. Because the more you understand all that stuff, the more you start to understand at a very kind of granular level what makes this business tick. And, uh, that's not always your mission. Your vision and your values right there is on the ground kind of subcultures get to know it all and get to see where you can kind of, you know, poke your finger in and kind of change what you can. And, uh, that's where the magic is. I think.

Belinda Brummer (host): That's it, folks. We've come to the end of my conversation with Mick. You have been listening to the managers moment brought to you by boost learning.

Belinda Brummer (host): Are you a new manager?

Belinda Brummer (host): Have you been managing for some time? But things around you have changed and you need to step back and take stock or things haven't changed and you wish they or you had. Boost learning could help start your own conversation with us today. Uh, contact details are in the show notes or go to www.boostlearning.online to find out more. The Manager's Moment, seeing the person in this and every moment.

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