Episode 7 Part 1

Join us on a boundary breaking journey with Michael 'Mick' Arkins as we trek through his global experience and international HR career.

How does Mick balance his belief in agility and innovation with the constraints of a risk-averse cultural context? What does it mean to navigate American, European and Chinese perspectives in the workplace? And how does he grow from the discomfort he actively seeks out?

Tune in as Mick shares his insights, challenges, and triumphs, inviting us to question our own boundaries and embrace the richness of our shared humanity.

About Mick

Mick has over 15 years of experience in International HR within a diverse range of industry experience within SaaS and B2C eCommerce environments. He has held senior HR roles in MindLeaders ThirdForce, Fleetmatics, Verizon Connect and currently heads up HR EMEA for Shein. 

He gets genuinely excited about healthy HR metrics and dashboard management, and describes himself as someone who leads by example and is also a project manager, culture influencer, and authentic team leader. Doing work that matters is what he loves!

Belinda Brummer (host): How far would you go to understand the complexity of people? How uncomfortable would you push yourself to be to reconcile your fundamental truths with the reality of the world in which you operate? This is the manager's moment and I am your host, Belinda Brummer. In this episode, I speak with someone who proudly hails from Dublin's inner city. Someone who crossed an ocean and climbed mountains to help underprivileged inner city youth build confidence and develop life skills. Someone who has himself built a successful international HR career whose professional landscape stretches west and east with feet planted firmly in a Europe that he loves.

Mick Arkins (Guest): My name is Michael Arkins.  Everybody calls me Mick. I am in Dublin, Ireland. My first job, technically speaking, was as a HR administrator in bank of Ireland and it lasted about a week before going into a company called Electric Paper. My most recent job is head of HR for EMEA with a company called Shein. It's a large FMCG business based out of Singapore.

Belinda Brummer (host): This is the first part of a two part episode. In this part of our conversation, Mick talks to me about learning to be agile, developing a career, defining interest in the experience people have of their workplace and leaning into being uncomfortable.

Mick Arkins (Guest): We met back in 2006. I would say you were my first proper manager. Um, you interviewed me for HR generalist role that you had open at the time. I went into the interview feeling very under qualified, but I think we had a great conversation at the time. We hit it off and I went on to accept a job in electric paper.

Belinda Brummer (host): Yes, you heard correctly. I was mix manager for about five years at the start of his HR career. What a privilege and curiosity it is 14 years later to be having this conversation with him. When I first got to know Mick, he had for a number of years been involved with an organisation called Trailblazers and we started our conversation there.

Mick Arkins (Guest): Yeah, so Trailblazers is a non profit. It's been around for about 130 years. Um, it's based out of New York City, but they have 1000 acres of land, nature conservancy land in Montagu, New Jersey. In a nutshell, it's a year long programme. My participation was during the summer months, bringing impoverished teenagers and young children into nature for a couple of weeks, typically a three week session, and within that session it would be teaching values for life and everything was centred around it. Be nature based. Right. So no electricity, no devices, you're in the middle of nature. And then we would do programme planning to teach things like literacy, numeracy, basic life skills, leadership training, build your own accommodation, build your own bed. We would go on ten day vagabonds where you would essentially need to navigate on the Appalachian trail point to point to point. And, uh, the whole idea was that you would go back into an urban environment feeling a little bit more confident, capable, tuned in with the natural world. I mean, some of these kids didn't even know what bananas were, right? And that sounds very strange, but they came from really impoverished parts of New York City and New Jersey, so kind of working with them.

Belinda Brummer (host): And what took you there?

Mick Arkins (Guest): Um, so it's kind of interesting, because when I was looking into wanting to do a j one visa in the United States, there was many companies that offered this, but one of them was called Camp America. And I remember being a bit naive at the time because I was younger and I deliberately was trying to choose inner city non profits or inner city camps. And, um, my thinking at the time, going back to being naive, was because I grew up in Dublin, one, and I grew up in the inner city in Dublin. I kind of equated that to, well, if I can kind of do it here, and I know how it all operates here, well, maybe that will be the same in the US, but it was very different. So I deliberately chose a nonprofit that at the time was kind of struggling to attract people to go work there, because it's not the nice summer that people expect when they do a j one. I mean, it's a pretty rigid programme. And like I said, you're out in the woods, right? So, um, you're working probably 15, 16 hours a day. It's not glamorous work and it's tough. And I still to this day say it's probably the most stressful job I have ever had for different reasons. But that's how I got into it. Like, I very specifically said, I want to go do something meaningful and that has impact. I don't want to sit at a lake all summer and do the whole camp thing. I want to actually make a difference and meet kids that need kind of inspirational role models. They need to meet people from all corners of the world and. Yeah, and just make a contribution to that and be a part of that.

Belinda Brummer (host): And how do you think that shaped you? Or what impact did that have on you as you started out your HR career then?

Mick Arkins (Guest): Trailblazers 100% forms part of my story. Um, I spent six years in trailblazers. The one value I would say I got from Trailblazers is it solidified my wanting to be in a career that had a more direct impact on people experience, but it definitely built in greater resilience and what I mean by that is I always use, um, you know, when I'm explaining this to people, I explain it like an elastic band. So I think when I went over to the US initially, and this has gone way back to 2002, I remember feeling, um, like everyone does, right? When you're kind of going into university and you don't really know what to do with your life and you kind of need some form of purpose, and this gives you that little bit of fuel for a few months to say, I'm doing something good, something important. Um, but I completely underestimated how hard it would be. Um, I think when I went over, I went through the training. We did training, they call it experiential training. We went through training for two weeks and I was just blown away. I mean, you know. You know what I'm like, right? I like my nice things and I like to look good, and I like to smell good and I like to feel good. And then they throw you into the middle of the woods in New Jersey where you've got snakes and bears and mosquitoes and, you know, you're trained in all these different protocols should there be an animal attack. And you're trained in nonviolent crisis intervention with children because some of them have behavioural issues. So, I mean, there were moments when I was like, what did I sign up for? What is going on? Um, and I guess, you know, I stuck with it. I definitely had moments where I was like, I need to get on a plane and get out of here. But I kind of didn't want to be a failure. I was like, look, I'm going to persevere, I'm going to keep up, I'm going to push. And I think what it's done for me is it's given me this resilience. So going back to the whole kind of, um, explanation around, like, it being like an elastic band I felt when I left trailblazers. Finally, in 2007, I came back to Dublin with a greater capacity for stress and a wider understanding for the complexity of people because I can understand it a little bit better, you know what I mean? So, you know, my tolerance for stress, um, was phenomenal when I came back, you know, nothing would really phase me. Um, and I find that that's one of the kind of key things, um, that I've carried into my HR career. Um, but I've also kind of brought in a more agile approach as well to how I see people. Right. I think I mentioned to you before, from a HR perspective, I try not to be the traditional view that people have of HR. I try to be a little bit more agile, a little bit more approachable, objective, and I feel like trailblazers gave me that. You know, it definitely gave me character. That, uh, I think is a strength that I've pulled on in my career to date.

Belinda Brummer (host): The manager's moment is brought to you by Boost Learning, where management development is done differently. Our eight week programmes are designed to fit perfectly around your schedule, your experience and your development needs, all delivered online and virtually. It is not training, it is development. To find out more, go to www.boostlearning.online. There was some overlap between trailblazers and Mick starting his HR career. He explains a bit about his journey from then to the present day.

Mick Arkins (Guest): You know, I would always say to people, I'm in the international HR leadership space. Most of my career has been in tech companies. I started off my career in a company called Electric Paper that went on to become mind leaders. That's where I got most of my foundational kind of HR knowledge, experience, skill. Um, when I left mind leaders, um, I went into a company called Fleetmatics, another tech company in the telematics space. That was a very interesting experience for me because I spent six years there. We grew headcount by about 40% year on year, spent about six years in fleet mattocks prior to it being acquired by Verizon. And then Verizon went on to rebrand Fleetmatics into Verizon Connect. So I spent an additional three years in Verizon Connect. Wanted to do something different in my career. I felt I was doing a lot of high growth, high scale work. That's a very different type of HR to the other types that you can do in various other organisations. So I kind of wanted to experience other bits of HR. So I made a decision to do one more year in Verizon, but not in Verizon Connect. Um, I spent a year in their global customer operations. And that was interesting because it was a very different environment, very different culture, very different work. They had very different strategic demands. Um, and I kind of had to adapt to that, did that for a year, completed out a couple of projects that I was asked to do. And then at the end of it all, I think I just came to my end in Verizon and wanted to look around for something different. At that point I was approached by a headhunter in Singapore. They were looking for a head of human resources and business operations based in Dublin for Shein. Company has been around for a couple of years. But they wanted to set up a hq presence in Dublin for their EU and UK markets. I went into that process, didn't know what to expect, didn't know too much about the company. Very different to tech. It's FMCG, it's fashion is their big category. Very, um, different customer demographic, very different functional composition to what a tech company would have. So I was attracted to that. I was also attracted to the fact that it had chinese origin. So a lot of my time in my career has been with European or American companies. So I've always been in a us centric corporate culture. So I was a little bit kind of compelled towards sheen, I was thinking, so it's Chinese, it's very different in terms of the industry it's in. I wonder what that is like. So I've been with Sheen for two years, and in the two years, we've grown our headcount to just under 800 people. I think when I joined, it was about 68. And, um, we're now in 13 different employment jurisdictions across EMEA, um, and doing many, many things every day to kind of grow the business at high speeds as we work to develop the business regionally.

Belinda Brummer (host): This is fascinating, the way that you've positioned that. Right. So US-centric experience in a technology environment and, um, everything that that means. And now you're working in a Chinese-centric in an FMCG context.

Mick Arkins (Guest): Yeah.

Belinda Brummer (host): What have you noticed from a career perspective, but from a people perspective?

Mick Arkins (Guest): Yeah.

Belinda Brummer (host): What is the difference? Is it. Is it as different as you might have assumed it would be? Is there anything that stands out or doesn't stand out and that surprises you?

Mick Arkins (Guest): Absolutely, yeah. Uh, yeah. For me, I mean, there's a lot of similarities, right. Because every corporate system, social system is going to look and feel very samey. But I would describe the kind of foundational culture, and bear in mind, I'm only referencing one company I've been in for two years, right. So I'm no expert on this, right. But I feel like I do with the us side of things, you know, like Fleetmatics, Verizon, Verizon Connect, and all the various iterations of that. I would say to you that culturally, they are. They're not even in the same solar system, but probably in the same galaxy. So when I went into Shein, I had to genuinely relearn what I thought was an approach to how I did my job. You know, you understand at a fundamental level what your competence is, what your capability is. We all have a self view, right. And, um, we bring that to work every day. I think what was interesting about Sheen was I kind of went in with that mindset. I kind of went in thinking, well, this worked at Verizon, this worked at Fleetmatics, so surely it's going to work at Sheen. But it didn't. And I kind of had to realise that, know, I need to take a step back, I need to observe, I need to learn, I need to understand. And, um, what I've realised about six months in is that there is definitely a very different way of seeing the world depending on where you sit in the world. And I find that although we have a lot of similarity and alignment when it comes to Europe, the US, South America, you know, and other parts of the world, I did not. I guess I underestimated the depth of that difference when it comes to engaging with colleagues in China.

Belinda Brummer (host): Can you give me an example of what, to help me understand what you mean by that?

Mick Arkins (Guest): Yeah, like, I'll give you one clear example. Right. And, you know, I don't want to give the impression that we do it better than they do it or any of that. I think there's strength in all of it. Right. And I actually kind of leverage that when I say that to people. I think one of the. One of the. The competitive distinctions a company like Shein has is that it has access to a real diversity of how the world should be seen. And you're almost challenged to kind of rethink your own way of seeing the world daily. So we challenge them, they challenge us. And, um, to give you a clear example of this, it might sound like a very kind of, of all direction to go in, right. But it always stands out to me. You know, one of the things I always say to people is that when it comes to decision making, if you're in a day to day situation where you've got a lot going on, you've got a lot demands coming in, you've got multiple projects on the board, you've got a team of people asking you for input on things. It can be overwhelming. Right. And I think we fine tune our ability to make decisions based on experience, intuition, you know, sometimes, you know, something might carry a bit of risk, but just do it anyway. Right. I need to get this done. It's important to the business so we can be very, I guess, decisive and very agile when it comes to just how we operate. And, um, we're okay with not having 100% of all the information. We're not, you know, we're not looking for perfection in everything we do. What I find they're a contrast to me is that when we're dealing with recruitment colleagues in China or centre of excellence colleagues in China, what we find is that they have this phenomenal need for granular detail in everything. Everything has to be documented word for word, letter for letter. Every decision that's made has to be quantifiable, it has to be backed up. Every process that's designed needs to be systemic, needs to be detailed, needs to be. I'd even go as far as saying maybe overly engineered. And um, there's this understanding, I guess, within that corporate culture that if it can be defined, it can be done by anyone. Where I would say, well, what about experience? What about expertise? What about the intricacies and the nuances that come with every profession in existence? So there's this interesting kind of logic that they apply and that is if you can do it, it's probably knowledge based. So therefore I can do so. You find yourself in a situation where from a communication standpoint, there's a little bit of disconnect there, where you really have to make sure that there is understanding on both sides. Because we know in the world of HR, for instance, it's not as straightforward as you might think. The world is a very complicated place and um, part of my job is to help companies navigate that complexity, whereas sometimes it's hard to convey that to some of my colleagues because they take more simplistic view.

Belinda Brummer (host): Mhm. When we started our conversation, you mentioned that trailblazers helped you develop a really maybe, or how you wanted to do HR was to take on a little bit more of an agile approach, you know, a different approach to HR than maybe people typically think of HR, which is rigid and process driven and policy driven, etcetera. And here you find yourself in a very non agile environment in terms of what, uh, you've just described, and yet it's still somewhat of a startup. How are you reconciling all of that in how you view the world of HR and how you want to work?

Mick Arkins (Guest): Yeah. So I think for me, when I came in, like, I determined very quickly on that, uh, compromise is going to have to be a big part of this. Right? I came in with big plans and big dreams to make an impact. And I guess as the business evolved from 2022, when I joined, you know, I did say to myself, look, there's some things that, you know, I will work to influence, you know, whether it's a global branding strategy that we're involved in or, you know, if we're looking at developing local, regional policy in Europe. I will always be an advocate for better, you know, I'll always look at policy formulation, better benefits, better people experience all of that stuff. But I guess I approach it in a way where I think, you know, there's going to have to be compromise here, right? And um, there's internal systems within a company like Sheen that make perfect sense. They make logical, perfect sense. They just don't seem very compatible culturally or from an experienced standpoint, many of our European countries. So what I tried to do is I tried to augment or complement some of those things by localising what I can. You know, if I see a communication channel within Shein, or if I see a promotional process within Shein, or whatever it may be, right, I will always take it in and I will see if I can adapt it within what would be, I guess, globally, okay. You know, so I definitely check in with my colleagues around the world and say, look, you know, I want to kind of mold this into a more European way of being, but we're not going to fundamentally redesign it or deconstruct it. But I find that as long as you're willing to engage constructively with people and say, let me just explain to you why I am saying what I'm saying, and I'm operating with good intent. I'm not just trying to impose this, but going back to what I said before about working with colleagues, um, in China, is that, you know, I've realised that if you've got a proposal, a solution, or you want to adapt a process, instead of just saying that and uh, sharing that opinion and hoping your experience speaks for itself, what I find is, you know, if you do a bit of work and you kind of help them understand the problem and why, what you're saying could be part of the solution. When you point to the problem, quantify the problem, show them where the pain is, show them data, right. If we do it this way, here's the potential consequence. Down here you tend to get buy in more quickly and that's how I reconcile it. Ive kind of, its a mad thing to say in the span of two years, but its kind of, um, Ive kind of taken something from that. And uh, now I operate in a way that's probably a little bit more detailed, a little bit more diligent, depending on who my audience is and what I'm trying to impact. I've definitely learned to adapt myself in terms of who I'm talking to, you know what I mean? So that's how I reconcile it. Like I compromise, you know, learn how they operate and know what you need, know what you're trying to influence, know the impact you want to, you want to get and do what you need to do to get there. Um, so, so I've, you know, I wouldn't say I've been fully assimilated, but I've definitely adapted how I work to be more successful in a Shein context. And that's interesting to me, right. Because, you know, when you go into a sheen, uh, at my age, you kind of think you, you know what you know and you've got your way of working. That's fundamentally changed for me.

Belinda Brummer (host): And what about HR? Uh, in that context, has your understanding of or your approach to your profession at all in relate because of this more recent experience that is not EU centric or us centric?

Mick Arkins (Guest): I don't think it's fundamentally changed. I think there's fundamental truths within HR itself. I mean, you can get deep into the academic academia of this. You know, you've got soft hr, hard hr. I operate based on what I know my fundamental truths to be. I operate based on what I call partnership principles. So every engagement I have or my team has are centred around those principles. And uh, we operate in an agile way. Right. So I think when you get into it, you know, you have to look at things like what is the identity of the culture within this business? What is the employee value proposition? What are we trying to create? Essentially, I have my feelings, I look at m my data, I know what my areas of opportunity are at a regional level, not just EMEA, you know, I know what my Dublin team needs, I know what London needs, I know what Berlin needs. I guess the challenge for me comes from the more global view because it's an interesting question because my fundamental truths I would probably go as far as saying are non negotiable. Right. I know what I think a good people experience is. I know how to motivate people, I know what's important to people. Um, but there can be a challenge in delivering on that because that's not always a shared view. And what's interesting, and um, this is not just a sheen thing. I guess every company I've ever been in, it's really interesting because you come up against a lot of key stakeholders, key team members that can influence things like policy and practise and ah, they don't see it that way. You know, it's probably been a bit too honest saying this, but I think I've definitely come up against people that will have a more transactional view when it comes to employment. You know, as long as you're paying people well and giving them good benefits, well, then job done, right? And that kind of bothers me. So even in situations, um, and again, I would say over the whole course of my career, there has been red alerts, in my opinion, from a metric standpoint where you're saying we have a problem and we need to do something about this problem.

Belinda Brummer (host): So what do you mean, red alert?

Mick Arkins (Guest): A red alert as in, like, let's say, for instance, you're monitoring on a dashboard that you've got, you know, an increase in voluntary attrition or you're getting data via exit surveys, or you just know through the grapevine that there's discontent, you know, that there's, you know, hate using all these analogies, right? But let's say, you know, there's bleeding, right? You know, there's pain. And it's always kind of fascinated me that, you know, in many companies, there can be what I believe to be an unhealthy tolerance to that type of thing, right? And I'm m not one of these people that's like, you know, throw costs at a. Throw money at it, like, do whatever it takes to stop it. But I do think that there's value in having a conversation, honest conversations, around why something might be the way it is. And I think a lot of companies that, that ignore that stuff can be. Can be, uh. It can be a problem, you know? So when I think of where I am today, I will always be a voice for better. I will always be a voice for more. When it comes to the employee experience, I will always do what I can to kind of impact that and make sure my region is in good shape. But it's always interesting to me that even when you can evidence things, there's a delay or a lack of momentum with putting a remedy in place. And, um. Uh, that's interesting to me.

Belinda Brummer (host): Well, it is interesting because we live in a world of data and we believe that if you have the evidence for it, you have the data to back things up. Well, that brings about change. But what you're saying is I have the evidence. I have the data, and yet there is still either delay or there nothing changes or nothing happens.

Mick Arkins (Guest): What do you think's going on there in your honestly. And this is not something I've kind of fully thought about. I try to rationalise it sometimes in my head, you know, and you know what? I tend to kind of lean on and it's a lazy way to think about it is we're all so busy. And, um, you know, I've always been, I don't know if it's a, if it's a, uh, blessed position or a cursed position, but I've always been in companies that are hyper-growth. So I always kind of say to myself, everyone's busy, right? We can't do the transformational stuff because we're so busy just getting through the day. And I guess that's how I reconcile it in my head, you know what I mean? I'm like, you know, tomorrow will be better, today, we got to do this. But sometimes when I really kind of look inwards on it, you know, when you look at a really fast growing, complex social system that is a big corporate that's doing very well from a revenue standpoint, I guess, you know, you're gonna be confronted with people who may have control and autonomy over aspects of that, right, but may not have a clue what needs to happen. So even when you point to the problem, there's a, uh, well, we may not internally be structured to kind of deal with that right now, or we may not have mechanisms in place to kind of quickly switch something on to deal with that right now. So I get that aspect of it too. But id be lying if I said it didnt bother me, because its in my mind, I'm thinking, look, fix it today, problem gone tomorrow. Were moving in a direction very fast. So lets let's keep the engine tight because these things will only grow. So I guess it's one of my frustrations in the roles I've been in is that momentum and speed are very important things. You know, getting that engagement from people that can make a difference in my world on making decisions around certain things I think would be, would be big, but it's not always the case.

Belinda Brummer (host): I'm listening to the language you're using, and on the one hand, you use words like compromise and, um, reconcile, which gives a sense of, oh, you know, I've had to accept things in a less than perfect state. And then in the same breath, you're talking about your truths, your fundamental truths around partnership. And so you hold these two things that would seem requiring different energy with different results. You know, you're compromising and reconciling, and yet there are these fundamental truths that you hold.

Mick Arkins (Guest): Yeah.

Belinda Brummer (host): How do you navigate that?

Mick Arkins (Guest): I had a boss a couple of years ago in Verizon Connect, or Fleetmatics at the time. There was a mantra that he lived by, and I've kind of adopted it. And I've embraced it because it's a perfect way of summing everything up. And he used to always say to me, and this was, I guess this was a way of tempering me, right? Because he knew what I was like. I'd be jumping in saying, we need to do everything, and he would temper me and say, progress over perfection. You know, you can have your fundamental truths, you can know what ideal looks like and never deviate from wanting that, but you can also accept the reality of today. Um, and I always say to people, like, if we're in a high growth organisation, you got to scale that proportionate to where you're at, right? So you can't go in and do all the nice things when you've got like 15 people in a local entity, you've got to scale it in a way that makes sense. And I understand that. So that's how I reconcile it, right? Uh, you know, I look at my day and I say, okay, we're not where I want to be today, but we are so far away from where I was a year ago. And in my mind, that's how I reconcile it. Like, I genuinely believe that we are moving in a direction that is completely aligned with what I want within the business I'm in. I'd like to be fast, faster, but that's how I reconcile it, right? I'm not in an organisation that is saying, I don't believe what you want to be valuable, right? I'm not getting rejection or resistance, I'm just not getting momentum. But it's changing and that's why I'm good to go with plodding along and, um, every chance I get, Belinda, I will try and influence every conversation I'm in, every. It doesn't matter where I am, right. I will always make sure the EMEA agenda is front and centre. I will always make sure that key business stakeholders know the importance of the EMEA region from a market standpoint. And I will be that voice. So, you know, that's how I do it. You know, I'm motivated to get to where I want to be and I'll do everything I can to kind of influence everyone around me to get there.

Belinda Brummer (host): When did you move into management? Whether it's of people or function or process, when was your first experience of managing?

Mick Arkins (Guest): Looking at the broad definition of management, I guess I've always had management responsibility that goes way back to mind leaders, you know, I had responsibility for a functional group and I had a lot of autonomy in that. I didn't have anybody reporting into me. So I was an individual contributor. So it wasn't just, you're managing a large team now, it was, you're managing a large team. And, um, they're all over the world and, um, different nationalities, different cultures, all of that. So that's where I think I learned the most. If I was completely honest with you, I didn't like it at all. Like, I didn't like my m hair. I won't go as far as I hated it. But if you think about what I was saying earlier, right. I, uh, went from knowing, you know, when, when you're doing a job very well and you're operating as an individual contributor, you know, you work on your terms, right. It's a very selfish way of being. You just got to make sure you and your manager are good, right. When you're managing people, not only are you expected to maintain the value as an individual contributor, the impact, and, um, all the things you contribute in that capacity, they don't go away, but all of a sudden you've got these people that you got to motivate. You got to make sure they've got good career direction, got to make sure they're in good shape when it comes to just being productive. Uh, that was tough for me. Like, I'm not going to lie. Like, you can read all the books you want on management and you can do all the leadership development you want to do, but it was really tough for me to find my way in all of that and figure out how do I need to be, you know, I.

Belinda Brummer (host): And how did you find your way?

Mick Arkins (Guest): I mean, to be honest with you. Right? And this sounds like I'm giving you a shout out, but. But others, too, right? But, but I borrowed inspiration from the likes of yourself, right. Because I was like, you know, and I know we joke about this all the time, you know, sometimes I say to myself, what will Belinda do? Uh, how would Belinda be? Right? Because there's things that I've observed over the years when you managed me going back to electric paper in the early years, but also things that I would look at when I was in Fleet Maddox, when I was in Verizon. And, uh, I guess I borrowed inspiration from past managers and leaders, but I would kind of weave it in to how I, uh, should be, you know? So there's bits of who I am today that come m from all of that, but then also extended leadership. Like, I met a lot of really inspirational leadership in various, um, companies. Um, and I think I borrowed from that. But, you know, at the end of the day, I got into a comfortable space. By the end of my time at Verizon, I felt like I had a good cadence with my team, a good approach, you know? Again, it sounds very kind of cliche, but for me it's about authenticity. It's about sitting down and being real, being open, being honest and genuinely caring. You know what I mean? Like. Like sit down and listen to what's going on and show that you understand and, um, don't just be operational. Get under the hood and build that trust with people.

Belinda Brummer (host): Themes?

Mick Arkins (Guest): Mhm.

Belinda Brummer (host): Have you noticed if there are any themes or threads that run through your life or your career, that whether you mean to or not, you notice them or you keep paying attention to them or they keep cropping up?

Mick Arkins (Guest): I think one thing that we spoke about many, many, many times is that I still fundamentally believe that the whole area of learning and development and, um, the power of learning and development from an organisational readiness standpoint is still pretty underdeveloped. Uh.

Belinda Brummer (host): We have come to the end of part one of this episode. In part two, Mick gets personal and shares what is at the root of his comfort with diversity, disarming with honesty and not staying in his lane. He also explains more about why he believes Allen Dee can do more to engage the mind of employees. You have been listening to the manager's moment with Michael Arkansas and I am your host, Belinda Brummer.

End.